TR7 Toledo: Saab radiator & Volvo 850 expansion tank fitted

[Bitsa]

Edit: I'm going to make this a general thread for stupid questions about by TR7 powered Toledo. It's been around this forum for a while before I bought it:
Little White Tolly thread: https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... 19&t=15395
Later thread on the brown forum: https://autoshite.com/topic/17793-trium ... tr7-powah/
My current thread on the brown forum: https://autoshite.com/topic/50998-toledo-2000tc/









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I'm going to be fitting a sprint gearbox and axle into my TR7 powered Toledo. It currently has an 1850 gearbox and axle. Given the larger rear drums, I'll need to reduce brake pressure at the rear to prevent them locking up.

Being a Toledo, I don't have a load sensing valve, and I have single circuit brakes. I thought about upgrading to dual circuit, but a few searches here suggest that might not be much of a real upgrade in terms of safety and performance and that the single circuit system is fine if kept in good condition. For what it's worth the current brakes are actually quite good.

Retrofitting an LSV seems like a pain, so I've bought a Vauxhall PRV as suggested by Careldo in various threads.

This is the one I've bought: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261959741296

I've done brake lines before, but only replacing like for like I want to make sure I'm doing it right! When I'm fitting the valve, my plan is to cut and flare the existing pipe at a point inside the engine bay - I thought about doing just before the rear flexi but wanted to keep away from muck. I'll find and fit the correct unions onto the existing pipe - unless it looks like it needs replaced.

The thread dimensions on the valve are M10x1 female & M15x1 male, finding a M10 male fitment isn't an issue, but finding a M15 female for the other side is what I'm struggling with. Also, I'm concerned the existing pipe will be the wrong diameter for these unions. So the other option I'm thinking of is adding adaptors to the PRV to take it down to the correct size fitments for the car, and possibly connecting it directly onto the 4 way valve or an existing union, to reduce potential points of failure.

Alternatively, I think I have seen suggested fitting a smaller rear brake cylinder to the sprint axle to reduce braking pressure. I think there was some lively discussion about whether or not this would actually be effective, given it will still have larger shoes. But this is quite a tempting option, given the cylinders on the sprint axle are an unknown quantity, and the ones on my 1850 are known good units.

Could anybody that has taken either of these routes give me any pointers please?

[Carledo]

The pressure limiter you have bought is for fitment directly into the master cylinder which is used on non ABS Cavs etc, hence the 15mm thread. the one i've used successfully is used on ABS fitted cars (Astra and Cav from around 93>) and has 10mm x1 threads at both ends, 1 x male and 1 x female, much easier to source! I have a couple of spare used ones if you struggle to find one. I also mount mine on the bulkhead near the top of the front-to-rear brake pipe. The Cav normally carries them at the rear, one at the body end of each rear flexi hose on that diagonal split dual circuit car, so they are relatively weatherproof, my choice to mount it at the top end was governed by the fact I had a space previously occupied by the dual circuit PDWA valve (which I deleted) where it fitted handily.

Dual circuit is a personal choice, it doesn't make the brakes any better (or worse, now the club's stainless lined cylinders are available) but it does improve potential safety as it halves the odds of a total brake failure. Which is why all my personal cars are dual circuit.

I also use the well known "Trackerjack" vented front disc conversion on all my cars, mainly because it completely eliminates the brake fade thar is endemic on hard used Dolomites/Toledos. A secondary effect is that fitting the front brake upgrade eliminates the need for either a LSV OR a pressure control valve. It's TJ fitted cars that benefit most from the smaller bore rear cylinders as the conversion can give a slightly "long" pedal and reducing the rear cylinder bore mitigates this.

Hope this helps, Steve

[Bitsa]

Thanks, I'll look for one with 10mm threads at both ends - my mistake. That clears it up a lot.

A front brake upgrade is definitely on the wish list but seeing as the brakes are currently pretty decent right now, I'll hold off till funds allow. Although I suspect when I get the new gearbox in and I'm keener to push the car harder I may find they aren't as good as I think! At least I've now got decent tyres, the ones it came with had plenty of tread but were terrifying in the wet - locking up all four wheels was hilariously easy. I'll keep the 1850 cylinders in case I do a TJ conversion.

I think I'll go dual circuit at some point - having had lines go on modern cars I've been very glad to have been able to limp them along (admittedly probably further than I should have) without losing all stopping power.

[Carledo]

Thanks, I'll look for one with 10mm threads at both ends - my mistake. That clears it up a lot.

A front brake upgrade is definitely on the wish list but seeing as the brakes are currently pretty decent right now, I'll hold off till funds allow. Although I suspect when I get the new gearbox in and I'm keener to push the car harder I may find they aren't as good as I think! At least I've now got decent tyres, the ones it came with had plenty of tread but were terrifying in the wet - locking up all four wheels was hilariously easy. I'll keep the 1850 cylinders in case I do a TJ conversion.

I think I'll go dual circuit at some point - having had lines go on modern cars I've been very glad to have been able to limp them along (admittedly probably further than I should have) without losing all stopping power.

That's the main point and the main reason I always use the dual circuit master, you can limp a dual circuit car a surprising distance on one circuit where a single circuit car is a trailer job.

Old, hard tyres will do that! Standard brakes are OK on a road car that isn't pushed too hard, they do and will stop the car. ONCE! Maybe twice. But sustained hard work will inevitably result in brake fade, the Achilles heel of solid discs. You don't NEED much bigger brakes, you DO need vents!

Steve

[Bitsa]

Thought I'd just continue this thread to save making a new one. My Toledo has a plank dash, and I quite like its minimalist layout but I'm planning on fitting a rev counter in place of the fuel/temp gauge and also fitting a new speedo. As this means I'll lose the warning lights and aux gauges I'm planning on fitting individual aux gauges, plus warning lights and extra switches elsewhere. I'd like to keep the car looking quite neat and OEM-ish looking where possible, without cutting any holes I'll regret later. The plan for the car is to be a usable road car, but I might also do some classic or night navigation rallies.

I've got a few ideas but I'm wondering if anybody has any pictures of their setups for gauges/lights/switches in their cars for a bit of inspiration?

Here is the setup I'm currently thinking about:

Gauges (existing holes):
Sprint or new electronic speedo - alternatively I might get the current one calibrated or fit an adjustment drive.
Rev Counter

Gauges (new)
Fuel gauge (from a curved dash model)
Temp gauge (new, with temp markings & matched sensor)
Oil Pressure*
Vacuum*
Oil Temp*
Voltage*
Curved dash warning light unit, instead of individual lights *
*Depending on setup I may fit 1 or 2 of these. I'm leaning towards oil pressure and one other. Not sure what's more useful, having never had a car with those gauges!

Switches:
Fan (Electric fan currently on a switch, plan on having it on a sensor with switch override)
Spotlights
Internal lights (Off - On - On switch - I might do some classic / night nav rallies in it and would like an unobtrusive navigator light, plus a brighter light for the entire cabin)
Hazards (Don't seem to have a hazard switch currently)
Demister (I don't think I have a switch, but I think I have a heated rear screen)
Overdrive inhibitor override (For overdrive in second, seems like an easier solution than drilling the box, please let me know if this is stupid)

Lights:
Ignition
Main Beam
Indicator
Oil
Overdrive on

It currently has a little Bluetooth stereo on the shelf, but I'm thinking of replacing it with a similar but slightly nicer one. If I'm fitting a panel below the dash, I could fit it behind that with holes drilled for the knobs to come through so the unit is hidden. This one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08K44GBM9/ ... _lig_dp_it

I'm also wanting to fit a 12v cig lighter ports, plus USB / USBc charging ports. If I fit a planel below this dash, these will be on the side of that panel. I plan on redoing the wiring with appropriate fuses and relays - I may post more on that later.

I may fit a stalk for the wipers. We had a bit of an incident on while I was navigating for my dad on a classic rally in his (latterly mine, now departed) Toledo where we hit water on test and couldn't see anything. He reached for the wipers in a hurry and the knob came off in his hand

Current dash pic below, with possible locations. On the top left of the dash in is a magnetic phone holder, screwed in where there were already holes for the rev counter which I temporarily relocated to the steering column. This phone mount will be redone a bit better at some point, as it was a quick job so I could mount it somewhere. Top right is a GPS speedo, which may go once I have a more accurate speedo. There is an existing hole in the dash on the left hand side, hidden by the steering wheel. This had a switch wish wasn't plugged into anything in the hole when I bought it - I suspect it may have been the dash light dimmer - I think the dash lights may have been replaced by LEDs. If I don't enlarge this hole to fit a gauge, I'll probably put a hazard switch there. I'm also planning on fitting a smaller steering wheel - while the current one looks like a Dolomite one, I think it's a larger one from a 2000. I haven't compared them yet, however.

I'll be fitting a rally trip from my previous car, but that will be fitted to a removable panel between the dash and shelf, or onto the glovebox on the passenger side.



One option I'm thinking about is a classic mini switch panel fitted below the dash, which might look OK but the gauges and stereo would need to go elsewhere. I quite like that style of switch but they are quite expensive - about a tenner each from what I've seen. Such as this:

[sprint95m]

I think that Martin Bellinger did this on his Vauxhall powered Toledo.
Think he used kit car type instruments?

Forum member Ian.Stewart now owns this car.
May be worth asking him for a photo


Ian

[xvivalve]

You should have mentioned this when you were here Fin, I have several spare Dolomite fuel, volts and temperature gauges and have a couple of vacuum gauges as well. I'd need to look if I have an oil pressure gauge left though...

[cliftyhanger]

bit late to the party....
I was involved in a lot of 12 car rallies/regularities along with PCTs and autotests/solos up to about 10 years ago. I initially used a herald, moved to a Toledo 1500 and then fitted that with a TR7 engine along with sprint box/axle.

The brakes have never suffered, even when I have been to goodwood and even Spa. Though I was concentrating on momentum management. I was using OE asbestos pads that cope much better than white box pads, the other alternatine is Mintex 1144/1155 or even Ferodo DS2500 if available.

Gauges, I question the use of a vacuum gauge, They are very distracting, and all people are looking for is max vacuum (ie economy) which is not what you are after. Likewise oil temp, unless sticking teh car on track and you use decent oil, you will not get it hot enough to worry.
Oil pressure gauges maybe a tad more useful, but I have gone to using just water temp and fuel. No volts, no oil warnings, nothing. Too distracting. I am considering a 15-25Psi oil pressure switch and a bright LED, but I am still thinking 4 years on.

What may be useful is somewhere to stick a Brantz (are they still used?) along with a quality maplight. Don't go beserk with spotlamps, unles the rules have changed you can only have a maximum of 4 forward facing lights including the headlights. Of course, higher levels of rallying allow more but stuff on the public roads I doubt.

Please don't be offended bu what I have said, but it is from experience. We used to do pretty well on the 12 car stuff, my teenage daughter was a damn good nav. Sadly she grew up. (I don't mean that, it is just that life changes)

[Bitsa]

I think that Martin Bellinger did this on his Vauxhall powered Toledo.
Think he used kit car type instruments?

Forum member Ian.Stewart now owns this car.
May be worth asking him for a photo


Ian

Thanks, I'll drop him a message / search their threads.

You should have mentioned this when you were here Fin, I have several spare Dolomite fuel, volts and temperature gauges and have a couple of vacuum gauges as well. I'd need to look if I have an oil pressure gauge left though...

Thanks Alun, I think my dad has some individual gauges as we stripped a rotten 1500 HL about a decade ago. The engine now lives in his Toledo, which is awaiting restoration i.e. he needs to learn to weld! For the more critical gauges, temp, oil pressure etc I'll fit new senders and gauges with actual values indicated as the mismatched TR7 temp sensor and Toledo gauge has given me a few panicky moments due to 3/4 on the temp gauge looking dangerously hot but only being about 95 degrees.

bit late to the party....
I was involved in a lot of 12 car rallies/regularities along with PCTs and autotests/solos up to about 10 years ago. I initially used a herald, moved to a Toledo 1500 and then fitted that with a TR7 engine along with sprint box/axle.

The brakes have never suffered, even when I have been to goodwood and even Spa. Though I was concentrating on momentum management. I was using OE asbestos pads that cope much better than white box pads, the other alternatine is Mintex 1144/1155 or even Ferodo DS2500 if available.

Gauges, I question the use of a vacuum gauge, They are very distracting, and all people are looking for is max vacuum (ie economy) which is not what you are after. Likewise oil temp, unless sticking teh car on track and you use decent oil, you will not get it hot enough to worry.
Oil pressure gauges maybe a tad more useful, but I have gone to using just water temp and fuel. No volts, no oil warnings, nothing. Too distracting. I am considering a 15-25Psi oil pressure switch and a bright LED, but I am still thinking 4 years on.

What may be useful is somewhere to stick a Brantz (are they still used?) along with a quality maplight. Don't go beserk with spotlamps, unles the rules have changed you can only have a maximum of 4 forward facing lights including the headlights. Of course, higher levels of rallying allow more but stuff on the public roads I doubt.

Please don't be offended bu what I have said, but it is from experience. We used to do pretty well on the 12 car stuff, my teenage daughter was a damn good nav. Sadly she grew up. (I don't mean that, it is just that life changes)

Not offended at all, that's very useful info. It matches my thinking that water temp and maybe oil pressure will be sufficient, I think a bright light may be perfect for oil pressure as, I'll look into that.

I've done quite a few 12 car night nav events as a navigator, and classic Road / Targa events as driver and navigator, but I'm by no means an expert (litteraly, I've been competing in the non-expert class). We've got a couple of Brantz meters which are still the standard, that'll be going on a removable panel on the passenger side. Although the more I think about it, I may put that panel in the centre below and attached to the switch panel if there is room - one issue I have had is my map board blocking my view of it when it is directly in front of me. Map light will be on the off-on-on switch for interior lights.

This is what I've mostly navigated in over the past few years, the v4 Saab 96 in the middle. It's very well prepped, but a bit too far away from being a usable road car for what I want. I've also navigated in the 3 litre Capri and TR8 (and a Skoda VRS and Yaris), which are closer to stock aside from the TR8 starting life as a TR7. All have very good, experienced drivers who have been rallying for much longer than I've been alive, which makes it an interesting experience! That Saab has kept up with or left behind many modern cars when making up time on a dark single-track road! We've gotten away with having four spots by leaving the covers on two of them - not sure if this technically allowed but we've gotten past scrutineering fine.



My white Toledo, and my Dad's red Toledo with a 1500 twin carb engine.



Sadly, my white Toledo is no more. Lack of time, then lack of time and space combined with lots of rust meant it was stripped for bits and scrapped. I still have the cage, but I'm a bit cagey (sorry) about having a full cage in a road car, and for now I like having a back seat so that's staying in the shed for now. If I end up doing a lot of events I may fit a rear cage, but I do plan on fitting seats with headrests at some point for a little more safety. Those photos are 13 years old, and the red one hasn't gotten any less rusty in the meantime - my Dad rebuilt a 120 year old wooden house while the Toledo sat on a trailer, but he's now retired and the house is close to being done so he's finally built himself a garage. One day it may see the road again!

Edit: Looking at the ad from when I bought it, I have Mintex fast road pads right now. I don't remember the brakes being great in the white one, but I don't think I ever got terrible fade. However for the rallies I was doing it was relatively slow road sections, then waiting for tests which were quite short with low maximum speeds, so I don't think they got a chance to get too hot. If I'm doing night nav stuff they will get more sustained heavy use so it might become an issue.

[cliftyhanger]

Let me know if you need any tolly parts, I am starting to dismantle mine as it is beyond redemption.
Fuel tank and interior gone, bumpers are scrap, bootlid scrap, byt might supply some body sections. Feel free to ask.

[Bitsa]

Thanks, luckily mine has a good shell. It'll be going into storage over the winter to keep it that way! No idea what the red one needs, but we do have a good stash of bits already!

I'm starting to consider taking a different route - a multifunction motorbike gauge.

Something like this:

https://www.louis-moto.co.uk/artikel/ko ... r=10036538

I would replace the current fuel/temp gauge, and while it is a smaller diameter (94.7mm), I could make an adaptor or possibly gut the existing gauge to fit it inside. Not exactly period looking, but it would save having multiple lights and gauges. Not sure if I could get the fuel gauge to work, but I think everything else would. Edit: It has a 270ohm setting for the fuel gauge, which I think will match with the Toledo sender.

[naskeet]

In the following topic thread you wrote:

https://autoshite.com/topic/50998-toledo-2000tc/

« Fit new tyres - I don't know if any of the previous owners know how old these are but I can't see any date codes, so I'm planning on fitting new rubber even though they look good. There is a set of MG metro and a set of Sprint wheels at my Dad's (He also has a much rustier Toledo, and my old one was his before it was mine) that I might use, but I like the look of the steels so may stick with them. »

Dolomite Sprint 5½ x 13 inch wheels (35 mm offset) will fit perfectly, but I am fairly sure that MG Metro wheels will NOT fit at all.

I am convinced that MG Maestro 5½ x 15 inch wheels (31 mm offset) would also be a good choice [I have a set of seven for my 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 "HL Special" - I have yet to finalise tyre-size choice from 185/65 R15, 185/60 R15 or 185/55 R15], which will probably require no modifications to the rear-wheel arches, but would ideally involve the substitution of M12 x 1•5 mm wheel-fixing screw-studs.

Board index » The Triumph Dolomite Club » Dolomite-related [Start here!] » MG-Rover-Austin Maestro or Montego alloy wheels for Triumph Toledo & Dolomite

https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... =4&t=34572

With the "four-headlamp" Dolomite dashboard (with substitute gauge panel), plus adjustable steering column & switch nacelle, you would have plenty of scope for gauges, warning lights & switches. You might like to peruse these topic threads I initiated a few years ago:

Board index » The Triumph Dolomite Club » The Public Bar - General Chat » “Factory-Standard, Alternative & Supplementary Instruments”

https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... =5&t=29524

Board index » The Triumph Dolomite Club » Dolomite-related [Start here!] » Customising Lucas 60 mm, 8-Segment, Warning-Light Clusters

https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... =4&t=29490

[Bitsa]

Thanks naskeet, the instrumentation topics in particular are interesting. I'll read through when I get a chance. I kept the steel MG wheels on and fitted new tyres to them, but I'll let my dad know the MG alloys might not fit.

I've been putting together a wiring diagram based upon MIG Welder's excellent late sprint diagram in this thread: https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... =4&t=32933

It's at an early stage, so it may change and have some questionable choices in it. And seeing as my car is a '74 Toledo and this diagram is for a late sprint things may be different. When I get to doing the actual wiring, I may either change the plan or modify the existing wiring to fit the diagram depending on what works best. I'm a bit rusty when it comes to electrics, so if anything looks off please say!

• I'm not if I should change the config of the relay for some of the ignition circuits (Wash / Wipe / Heated Rear Window and Overdrive on a relay).

• I haven't looked into fuse amperages yet.

• I'm not sure if I have added relays and fuses where not required, or not used them where I should

• I'm not sure if I need the inline fuses on the aux power / stereo lines but given the large number of things drawing power on there it seems wise.

• I'm not sure if I need to change the battery cut-off wiring to protect the alternator in case of the power being cutoff while running.

• I think I can wire the Koso up for the N (Neutral light) = N means Not charging (IGN Alternator light) and the Engine light to be Oil, but I'll need to check polarity. If this doesn't work, I'll add an extra light or two by the OD On light

• I need to check if the switches not protected by a relay can carry enough current (HRW, OD, Hazards)

• Edit: I think I'll move the OD light from series to parallel

• Edit: V0.8 shows two batteries, there will be only one!

Click for full size

Current plan is to use the following:
Multifunction rev counter (KOSO TNT04 - RPM, Fuel, Temp, Volts, Light & Indicator telltales, Oil and IGN warning)
Stereo / Switch Box (Black aluminum project box, fitted centrally under dash)
Stereo (Fitted inside box, with holes for knobs)
Switches (Black pushbutton, lit white when off, red when on)

Edit: After thinking about how to actually wire stuff up, I've decided to simplify it a bit. Decided the relay for the ignition is probably not required - if one item in particular draws a lot of power I'll put it on its own relay.  To save on wiring I've moved the relay and fuses for the aux power (usb, stereo) into the switch box - as at one point I had 30 wires going into there and I've now got it down to 19.

Version 0.9 - click for big.

[naskeet]

bit late to the party....

I was involved in a lot of 12 car rallies/regularities along with PCTs and autotests/solos up to about 10 years ago. I initially used a herald, moved to a Toledo 1500 and then fitted that with a TR7 engine along with sprint box/axle.

The brakes have never suffered, even when I have been to goodwood and even Spa. Though I was concentrating on momentum management. I was using OE asbestos pads that cope much better than white box pads, the other alternatine is Mintex 1144/1155 or even Ferodo DS2500 if available.

Gauges, I question the use of a vacuum gauge, They are very distracting, and all people are looking for is max vacuum (ie economy) which is not what you are after. Likewise oil temp, unless sticking the car on track and you use decent oil, you will not get it hot enough to worry.

Oil pressure gauges maybe a tad more useful, but I have gone to using just water temp and fuel. No volts, no oil warnings, nothing. Too distracting. I am considering a 15-25Psi oil pressure switch and a bright LED, but I am still thinking 4 years on.

What may be useful is somewhere to stick a Brantz (are they still used?) along with a quality maplight. Don't go beserk with spotlamps, unles the rules have changed you can only have a maximum of 4 forward facing lights including the headlights. Of course, higher levels of rallying allow more but stuff on the public roads I doubt.

Please don't be offended bu what I have said, but it is from experience. We used to do pretty well on the 12 car stuff, my teenage daughter was a damn good nav. Sadly she grew up. (I don't mean that, it is just that life changes)

You might wish to peruse the following topic thread and individual posts:

Board index » The Triumph Dolomite Club » The Public Bar - General Chat » “Factory-Standard, Alternative & Supplementary Instruments”

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=29524

Posted on Tuesday, 4th August 2015 @ 4:23 pm

https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... 24#p276478

Engine Inlet-Manifold Vacuum Pressure

Posted on Saturday, 1st August 2015 @ 4:35 pm

https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... 73#p276373

Oil-Temperature Gauge

[Bitsa]

Thanks Nigel,

On the advice of the chap who I navigate for in the SAAB I'm going to fit an adjustable oil pressure switch on a T piece with a pressure gauge. Oil temperature possibly too.

Work on swapping the gearbox started this weekend. My father-in-law is helping, and I'm using his drive as my sloped car park isn't a great place to have all four wheels off the ground and being an ex aircraft mechanic, he was a useful man to have around. Old box is out, new box is in. Axle still needs to be swapped, we're currently struggling to get the drums off, but getting there. We've hit a few snags along the way, firstly not having all the right nuts and bolts for the gearbox adaptor plate. I'd done some reading and bought a new set of bolts. However, the studs in place on the backplate and adaptor plate didn't quite match the parts diagrams I found for TR7's, 1850's or Sprints. Using new bolts, old bolts and some M8's in place of 7/18ths we made it work.

After that we struggled to get the top starter bolt on (3 hours!) getting the gearbox in turned into a bit of an issue. Forgetting that I'd read on this forum previously that it couldn't be done with the engine and subframe in place we didn't drop the subframe at the start of the job. Of course, the box wouldn't go in, but not wanting to drop the subframe just to immediately put it back in (and feeling aggrieved that the starter would have been a lot easier if I had dropped it) we tried to figure out a solution. We put the gearbox inside the car, we dropped gearbox the tail through the hole below the car. We then jacked up the back of the engine till we could get the end of the shaft lined up and bit by bit, till we got it far enough in to raise the box and slide it into place. I then fitted the gearbox mount bushing the wrong way round, which made it a nightmare to fit. Once it was in, I realised my error but it was getting dark so called it a day. Progress resumes tomorrow.

Car seems very solid, and most stuff has come apart easier than moderns I've worked on. There are a few bits of rust I'm going to treat and paint, but nothing needing welding.


Ideal working conditions for Scottish winter.


High tech OD filter removal tool - it worked perfectly.


This is about the point I realised we didn't have the right bolts.