Battery leads

[ian.stewart]

Im sorting out a few electrical gremlins with my Toledo, a lot of it caused by corroded or dry joints, Haven't touched it for a week or so just because of the cold, went out to move it last night and got the famous, "CLICK" of death, even with a jump, click, so I bought a new battery today, and "CLICK" OK so I have another problem, I have attached a jump lead to the live on the starter and and clamped an earth to the block, still click, Im going with a naff or stuck starter now, I have even pulled out the spark plugs and still click,
Prior to this, My first call would be change the earth leads and live cable, I have lots of 4swg welding cable, which IMHO is about as good as you can get, Plans are eventually fit the battery in the boot, and get a bit of weight off the nose,
Having a nose about and following the live cable from the battery, there is a connector block saddled on it with quite a few brown wires going into it, thats a new one on me, before I cut it off and reattach all those wires together is there anything to look out for? from what was going to be a short mornings work, I think im looking at a couple of days now

What will I find inside this little block of wires if I open it up,

[Carledo]

The block of 4 wires (which are, or should be, all brown) is a hangover from the car's Toledo roots. I have one on all 3 of my Vauxhall powered cars as it's a convenient thing to have and i've NEVER had a problem with it's function, despite it being pretty exposed to the elements under the bonnet and quite low down on the flitches. It was so successful in the Carledo that I used one on the Sprint (Dolomega) and just recently on the Vaux powered 1500FWD.

If you DO want to dispense with it, you can get a "live post" which takes many leads on ring terminals or a "bus bar" which uses smaller spade terminals (not really suitable for big currents) from places like Car Builder Solutions. The Dolomega with it's plethora of additional electrics and electronics, has, besides the original 4 way block, got 2 live posts and 3 bus bars for different sorts of live useage!

All this is irrelevant however, as the "click of doom" is indicative of either a starter fault, the solenoid is throwing in but the starter itself is not working, hence the click, OR there is an engine earth fault.

Put a test light on the low voltage switching lead to the solenoid and ensure there is current there when you turn the ignition to "start" (pretty sure there will be, you wouldn't get a click else) and use a jump lead as a secondary engine earth from a good point on the engine direct to battery negative. If neither of these show a fault, it's time to pull the starter, not the easiest job, but a lot simpler if you still have the tunnel out!

I've boot mounted the battery in both the Carledo and the Dolomega as I found the Sprint style 038 battery is only marginally capable of spinning the Vauxhall motor and, as in the Sprint, it's simply NOT possible to get a bigger one in the underbonnet location, no matter whether it's turning a Vauxhall or a Triumph engine.

I also fit a relay in the starter circuit as the Vaux starter pulls more current than the original Triumph one and it tends to be hard on ignition switches that are getting rare and expensive. It also lets me fit my trademark push button starting, but that's another story!

Steve

PS Probably worth tracing the starter circuit back to see if someone HAS fitted a relay already and it's the relay at fault!

[ian.stewart]

Thanks Steve,
The block im guess is a hangover from the starter solenoid, it was just one of those moments where I looked and thought Bumhats,
dunno if there will be much effort tomorrow, as were out, were saying goodbye to the local "Cocktail Bar" that had a good selection of beers too, Last night tonight.
Plans are to remove the starter, had a hot lead on the live and still the "Click" that too with a jump lead on the block, could be a new starter if I cant find a fault.
where about did you fit the battery in the boot??

[Carledo]

If the block is actually part of the main power lead, it's a refugee from a Sprint which had this arrangement as standard. Non Slant powered Dolomites and Toledos had a remote version with one lead going in from the solenoid and 3 out (namely one each to ignition switch, fusebox, and a double one that went to alternator output and master light switch) This will pretty much cater to all the permanent live needs of a near stock car. It's only when you get into the realms I have with engine management, trans management, and the installation of 20+ fuses in 2 fuseboards and something like 18 relays in 2 further boards (instead of 2 fuses and zero relays) that you start to need a lot more lives, both permanent and ignition controlled!

On the Carledo, which was the first built and was primarily a road going track day/RWYB drag car I mounted the battery along with the high pressure fuel pump and filter in the spare wheel well. not a particularly good use of space, but the battery countered the weight of fuel in the tank a bit and kept it out of sight. If I needed a spare wheel for longer trips (ie to Castle Coombe etc) I just threw one in the boot and took it out for the track work.

For the Dolomega I got more civilised and built a carrier bracket that sits centrally above the axle. It cuts down on luggage space a bit, but at least I can keep a full sized spare wheel in the correct space which is more desirable for the long distance cruiser this car was designed as. I think there are some pics of this in my resto thread "Project Dolomega, the next level".

Steve

[ian.stewart]

Well. surprisingly spritely this morning, Mulling over ideas, I have a nice battery tray that fits the new battery perfectly, plans are today or tomorrow, get the car in the air, first job will be crop and seal the power lead that runs into the little connector box from the battery or possibly cobble it into a live stud, leave the starter lead from there in situ, run a suitable 4swg lead from the boot direct to starter, earth strap the battery to the shell, and re bond the engine and box to shell,
All this now starts the rebuild of the starter, and re positioning of various ad hoc relays dotted in various places.

[Carledo]

Having broken a number of Cavaliers and Carltons over the years, i've never had to actually BUY a starter. So no idea of the cost! however the starter is an almost universal Vauxhall item that fits all the 4 cylinder petrol blocks in almost any capacity from 1200 to 2200cc, FWD and RWD and in both 8v and 16v versions. There are detail differences in solenoid angle and some are more beefy looking than others. You also come across the odd one that has a bracket securing it to the side of the block. But basically they ALL have that 2 bolt fit where the upper bolt is a 12mm from the back and the lower is a 10mm from the front. So you shouldn't have much bother finding one to suit your purpose.

I'd offer you one of mine, but I sold my last pair of Cavs last year along with most of my spares for them and it appears i'm down to my last one and I KNOW what will happen if I sell it!

Steve

[ian.stewart]

All im saying is Christmas is a pain, cant get much done with a small puppy and a wife that wants to buy more presents for the 14 grandchildren, and probably enough food for easter too.
Went back to basics with the starter, jump lead to the live on the starter, jump lead onto block, crocodile lead on the starter pre engaged solenoid jumped that onto the battery live, and the starter is fine ...... so now I need to see if theres a relay built into the system by a previous owner, I have discovered 4 relays, the function of 2 I know, fuel pump and fan.
Next suspect, Ignition switch is always a bit lightweight on most old cars when having to pull pre engaged starter solenoids, I have had it on fords before doing this, where the switch contacts burn out, or at least go High resistance.

[Carledo]

By an odd co-incidence, I got the click of doom myself t'other day on the ex FWD. In my rush to get it on the road, i'd not fitted a relay and a couple of times recently i'd got a couple of clicks before it cranked over and fired and it FELT like a duff ignition switch. So I plumbed in a momentary switch and a relay and was still the same.

Only then did I notice the nut was loose on the solenoid feed wire on the starter D'OH!

Steve

[ian.stewart]

Thats cheered me up lol,

[Carledo]

On the extra relay front, it's VERY common for us Toledophiles to fit Halogen bulbs and correspondingly to relay the headlamps, the dipswitch is very vulnerable and it's getting hard to find and therefore expensive! In fact, the Toledo, with only 2 headlights is a lot less vulnerable than a Dolomite with 4 but that's almost irrelevant. I run my Toledo without relays and my 4 light cars with and that seems to work for me. But that's just me!

A fan relay is all to the good, but i'm surprised there is one on the fuel pump seeing as you are on carbs and a low pressure pump. A further 2 would possibly (likely) be dip and main beam 1 each.

I'm not the electrician Jeroen on here is, but I think i'm probably a bit more clued up and willling to mess with electrics than most. And the gist of this is that I see an awful lot of bad practice, electrically speaking, even on otherwise beautifully built cars. Generally stuff can be scattered all round the car and wired with the same colour wire doing duty as feed, output, switching and earth. Which makes life hell for any poor soul who comes along later! A lot of very good mechanics regard electrics as black magic and wiring as an afterthought!

You may well have a starter relay fitted and just haven't found it yet. If you haven't got one, it's probably time to fit one!

Steve