Free speech...

[Jon Tilson]

Dolomite owners are always up for a good discussion.<br>
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Lets think laterally...Satan has many weapons in his armoury. I will list a few...<br>
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1. False religion. Here are some pointers..Historically flawed on faked evidence etc, Fosters unatural practice, non equality of sexes, Fosters violence against non followers.<br>
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2. Bad practice of followers of the real truth. Purges, schism, intolerance, distortion of written texts etc. Again the pointers are similar to item 1. We can also add our own.<br>
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3. The belief that God doesnt exist. Anything goes. With no absolute you can have no absolute authority and therefore no absolute morality. If it feels good do it. But what if it hurts somebody esle? What if the consequences are bad for others later. Doesnt matter not my problem....as long as not too many others are looking. Time is a great healer after all...This is the dont care mentality Ben is talking about. Very prevalent in France.<br>
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4. An evolutionary pseudo scientific world view. This fosters the belief that God may exist but if he does he is remote and not that bothered. It sits very well with the view that he doesnt exist at all..Freedom from all those rules. Great...but freedom to do what? Mess it all up if you ask me. A russian evangelical on trial for his faith summed it up well..."Its no surprise you persecute us...if you believe you are descended from apes then you will behave like animals." Cue our city centres on Friday nights....<br>
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The consequence of these weapons of Satan is that loads of us humans are deceived, and are therefore condemned to join him in eternal destruction.<br>
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But if there is truth at all it must be unique...<br>
If Jesus said.."I am the way the truth and the life" and "I and my Father are one"...basically I am God in the flesh, <br>
and "Noone comes to God but through me" then he is making the most enormous claims. Everyone is free to evaluate them....disagree with them and even deride them. But you only get to do it in this life.<br>
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Funny how the true followers of the master seem to build the most tolerant and free societies...often paying the ultimate price on the way for the freedoms of those who come behind them. They also on the whole make for lovely people....warts and all. One of the truest virtues of the church I go to is that so many people from such diverse backgrounds...(many with no interest in Dolomites at all) get on so well together.<br>
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One of the key tennents the true Christian faith is the seperation of church and state. God in his wisdom knows that you cant force people to believe anything in their own headspace. He made us all free....allowing us even to chose very damnation if we so desire....The founding fathers of the United States had seen the consequence of denying that practice first hand. Thats why they built it in to their constitution.<br>
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So God says if you dont want Me that's fine...you can have my very absence. That's what we see on our streets as Alun was saying. That's what we'll end up with when this life ends if we so choose.<br>
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But those that seek to take away that freedom of belief....by force of violence especially....perform a huge greivance against the God that made them.....and worse still if they claim to do it his name.<br>
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Jonners<br>
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[alun n]

Mr Tilson, your eloquence puts me to shame!<br>
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Good essay on this in today's Mail by Ann Leslie; tells a good impartial story from a woman who was brought up in a Muslim society...

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[Jon Tilson]

a line has been drawn by our judiciary....<br>
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Hamzah has been sent down...<br>
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I await with interest to see if any prosecutions follow the demonstrations...<br>
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Thanks for the support Alun...I was equally impressed by your posts btw. I also fear that a generation who believes nothing will have nothing good to pass on to its children.<br>
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Jonners

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[bodgerben]

something sensible was done to Hamzah, now the blamestorming has started as to why it has taken so long.<br>
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As a wiser man than me said :<br>
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There is so much in the world that we could do for each other, and we are each here for such a relatively short time, that to squander that time engrossed in religion, and focussed on the next life, is a selfish and indulgent abdication.<br>
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<p>Ben<br>
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<!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.dollysprint.com">www.dollysprint.com</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p206.ezboard.com/bthetriumphdolo ... dgerben</A> at: 8/2/06 11:17 am<br></i>

[Jon Tilson]

but in my experience its much more likely that those who do most for others in this life are indeed those who have an eye on the next...<br>
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Not necessarily because of that...but because of what they have already been given....<br>
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Jonners:

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[george]

you dont have to belive in anything to display christian morals and attiudes a good friend of mine had no belief in any religon whatsoever and was a really nice guy

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[Silvery]

However... I'd just like to point out that Jonners God is Hamza's God, just they disagree on quite what he said, to whom, and when. Oh, and that'll be the same god the Jews buy into as well.<br>
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Had we been born in a muslim country would I still find religion abhorrent, and would Jonners be telling everyone Allah is not only real, but the reason to live a good life?<br>
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It's possible to have a spiritual belief in an afterlife without following a major religion, it's possible to be a decent person without being a Christian, and most importantly no religion is without its share of fanatics and complete bastards. Not even the beardy chocolate bunny one.

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[algtj]

I was Christened as a Methodist, brought up by one parent who was a Jehovah's Witness, who then turned Buddist, the other parent is a pagan!<br>
(This may explain my warped sense of humour!)<br>
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I dislike religeon in all forms as my job has taken me to many parts of the world where I have witnessed the aftermath of unspeakable acts against men, women and children that have been committed in its name. I do however respect each persons views on their chosen beliefs.<br>
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There is one teaching that I uphold though and this is, do unto others as you wish done unto you.<br>
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OR<br>
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Be twice as evil as the evil people, or twice as nice to the nice people.<br>
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There endeth the lesson according to Al W. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /happy.gif ALT=":D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END-->

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[Jon Tilson]

and I'm sure you didnt mean it in any way offensively...but I have to say it is mighty offensive to any Christian or Jew or Moslem to have someone think that the "allah" of Hamzah and his Islamist extremist ilk, bears any similarity to the jewish Yahweh (english Jehovah) or Jesus Christ or moslem Allah.<br>
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It is a source of sadness to any true Christian that he has to spend so much time apologising for the actions of others so called. Hypocricy is one of the worst of human vices, but isnt an excuse to throw the baby out with the bathwater.<br>
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Truth is there to be found if you look for it. Like I said...the claims of Jesus are enormous. Do they stack up? I find they do.<br>
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Anyway I didnt start this thread with the intention of sermonising...merely to bemoan the state of our nation,<br>
which as we all frequently agree is sadly lacking in the car production department since Triumph is no more, and as we also often comment is sadly lacking in the political sphere too.<br>
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I wonder if discussions on religion etc are a bit out of scope even for this part if the board. I'm happy to talk about religion and most other things too til the cows come home but happy to bow to others thoughts on whether this is the right place for a heavy subject?<br>
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Jonners<br>
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[algtj]

Jonners, if friends can't talk frankly on any subject no matter how emotive on this forum then there is something wrong.<br>
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How often can we all get together around a fire in a pub to discuss what bothers us?<br>
This I believe is an open forum (non Dolomite) after all!<br>
As such I welcome and applaude anybody who posts his/her views no matter how controversial to one, most or all!<br>
A bloody good discussion is good for morale. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /happy.gif ALT=":D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
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Al W

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