Saab 9-3 Radiator. Work in progress with photos......

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sprint95m
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Saab 9-3 Radiator. Work in progress with photos......

#1 Post by sprint95m »

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To my Dolomite I have successfully fitted a Saab 9-3 radiator
(well actually, it is pretty much the same as a 99, 900, 9000 etc radiator !).
However I have not finished the installation since I have yet to fit a fan or finalise the bottom hose design, but
given the discussion in THIS RESTORATION THREAD I consider my posting at this time to be worthwhile.
I bought the radiator from a local motor factor who price was no dearer than mail order but gets next day delivery.


Why change the radiator?
A Dolomite radiator is adequate for the vast majority of use but its weakness is on long climbs, particularly when slow
moving (thereby having slower airflow through the radiator). The temperature will rise to reach halfway on the gauge, then on the descent quickly drop back down.
Looking at the engine bay, there is ample room for a wider radiator, so what to use....?
Obviously I am not alone in thinking there is room for improvement.
Other radiators used that I have found reference to include Mitsubishi Gallant, Volvo 740, Porsche and THIS FORD FIESTA DIESEL.
The first three are taller but not really any wider so I dismissed them. The Fiesta radiator needs to be installed upside down
and takes a fair amount of adapting to suit a Dolomite and the photos of these I have seen left me unsure of the LH top hose's 90 degree elbow.
The Ford radiator has over 20% more surface area than a Dolomite's and at 500mm is some 60mm wider to.
My internet search produced a few candidates but I homed on on THIS ONE, which I calculated was as wide as a
Dolomite can accept and very usefully had the correct spouts including the RH vent. It has over 30% more surace area and at
1.8 litres, 50% more capacity.

I would have liked to have studied a Saab first, but after some thought I bought a 9-3 radiator, anyway.
(Since then I have spotted a 9-3 sitting covered in moss in a street I often walk along, but on the other side :roll: .)


Here is the radiator
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and with an 1850 radiator for comparison
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The radiator installed....
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The top LH hose needs extending. Simply cut and fit a 32mm alloy joiner.
Note that there is no distortion of either elbow.
I shortened the spout to make it approximately the same length as a Dolomite one.

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The top RH hose consists of a length of 16mm bore hose connected to a cut 11mm 45 degree elbow.
I have allowed for movement of the engine so as not to strain the connections.

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With the belt driven fan and pulley assembly removed there is ample room for an electric fan.

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The only alteration to the bodywork I made was to cut the lip on the inner front panel (as indicated)
and tap down to make room.


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The Saab radiator comes with a whole variety of fixings, a lot of which need to be removed to make it fit.
For attachment to the Dolomite I used simple brackets onto the bumper fixings.

The wiring across the front has to be re-routed a little (easy to do) and the battery needs to be about 10mm or so
further back (I drilled a new whole for the back threaded bar, again an easy job).

I haven't settled on a design for the bottom hose yet. The one I am using at present is okay but can be improved upon.





Aside from the lack of belt driven fan noise, things are as before.
The engine takes the same time to warm up and runs at the same temp gauge position
(which is not surprising since it has a thermostat :) ).
It'll probably be next summer before I get a chance to test out how it does on the long climbs.
Given that slant four engines were used in Saab 99s, using a radiator for a Saab seems appropriate?
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Re: Saab 9-3 Radiator. Work in progress with photos......

#2 Post by Mad Mart »

Good stuff Ian. I was going to go the Fiesta rad option for my track Sprint but may well go for the SAAB option now.

Could you use the SAAB's fan as well?

Image

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SAAB-900-9-3- ... %26ps%3D54
Sprintless for the first time in 35+ years. :boggle2: ... Still Sprintless.

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Re: Saab 9-3 Radiator. Work in progress with photos......

#3 Post by tinweevil »

Nice work Ian.

How do the dry weights compare? Stock rads with their brackets are pretty weighty things, the alloy and plastic construction must go some way to offsetting the weight of the extra water the Saab rad contains.

Does it have a boss for fitting a standard fan stat?
1978 Pageant Sprint - the rustomite, 1972 Spitfire IV - sprintfire project, 1968 Valencia GT6 II - little Blue, 1980 Vermillion 1500HL - resting. 1974 Sienna 1500TC, Mrs Weevils big brown.
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Re: Saab 9-3 Radiator. Work in progress with photos......

#4 Post by DoloWIGHTY2 »

I have to say I find the 1850 radiator more than adequate for normal road use, I would have thought a track day car then yes, this would be worthwhile.

Surely the easiest route to adding more cooling capacity would be simply bolt in a Sprint item?

Whilst I admire your ingenuity for doing this I am little puzzled as to why.

Sorry. :oops:
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Re: Saab 9-3 Radiator. Work in progress with photos......

#5 Post by covcourier »

I've got a Saab 9-5 2.0 radiator with fans here if anybody might want it. Came out of a 2.0 turbo.

£25 + postage at cost.

Would need to know soon though as its on ebay as part of a job lot of Saab parts I'm clearing out. Ending tomorrow I thnk.
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Re: Saab 9-3 Radiator. Work in progress with photos......

#6 Post by SPRINTPARTS »

A series 1 Porsche 944 radiator fits with very little modification to the radiator support panel top flange. It provides very good cooling even under racing conditions in Australian summer temps of 35 Deg C.

Philip
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Some answers...

#7 Post by sprint95m »

"Could you use the SAAB's fan as well?"
I will look at this option.



"How do the dry weights compare?"
Sorry, didn't measure these.
The Saab radiator is surprisingly light. The brand I bought is Ava (Germany).


"Does it have a boss for fitting a standard fan stat?"
No.
In a slant four the hottest part of the cooling system is at the back of the cylinder head, so fitting a fan stat
here is the option I favour. I have redirected the heater input from the cylinder head (instead of the inlet manifold)
which gives about 5 degrees warmer air.


"Whilst I admire your ingenuity for doing this I am little puzzled as to why."
As I said in the introduction,
the idea is to try and overcome the potential problem of overheating on long climbs.

A friend of mine had a Sherpa pick up followed by a Daihatsu 4x4 turbo diesel.
Driving from Wick to Golspie (50 miles) the Sherpa took less time despite its 45mph speed because he had
to wait at the top of Berriedale (13% one mile) for the 4x4 to cool down :roll: .
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Re: Some answers...

#8 Post by tinweevil »

sprint95m wrote:"Does it have a boss for fitting a standard fan stat?"
No.
In a slant four the hottest part of the cooling system is at the back of the cylinder head, so fitting a fan stat
here is the option I favour. I have redirected the heater input from the cylinder head (instead of the inlet manifold)
which gives about 5 degrees warmer air.
I don't think that is the right place for the fan stat. The water thermostat is what controls engine temperature, the fan stat is there to start the fan if the rad has not cooled the water as much as is needed. By linking the fan to the engine temp you are introducing a delay in bringing on the fan.
You are plodding up a long hill, the water from the rad is not being cooled enough, the over hot water enters the engine and circulates, the water stat is likely already fully open so instead of rad flow increasing the head gets hot, that heat has to pass through the head backplate into the stat to start the fan.
You'll have the same delay on cooling once you crest the hill. The fan will go on running longer than is needed overcooling the return water which will be fine because the water stat will close a bit to reduce the flow and maintain engine temp. In control system theory terms your cause and effect are linked across (sub)systems.
If you have a hotspot on the engine (we do) then flow in that area needs to be addressed. The TR7 has one approach to this, looking at the head/gasket/block openings might be another.
1978 Pageant Sprint - the rustomite, 1972 Spitfire IV - sprintfire project, 1968 Valencia GT6 II - little Blue, 1980 Vermillion 1500HL - resting. 1974 Sienna 1500TC, Mrs Weevils big brown.
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Yes.....................

#9 Post by sprint95m »

tinweevil wrote:I don't think that is the right place for the fan stat......
Thanks Julian.
Just completed a little investigation and have found THIS.



The key line is
"THE THERMOSTAT WILL TURN ON WHEN THE WATER TEMPERATURE REACHES @ 90C. & TURN OFF WHEN BACK DOWN TO @ 80C."
so that rules out the heater input hose I had considered using because the temperature will be (at least) 82 degrees?
It will be easy to fit one of these to my car's top hose, so I think this is the way to go.


Thanks.
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Hmmm..................

#10 Post by sprint95m »

SPRINTPARTS wrote:A series 1 Porsche 944 radiator fits with very little modification to the radiator support panel top flange. It provides very good cooling even under racing conditions in Australian summer temps of 35 Deg C.

Philip
Thanks for that info Philip.
I hadn't really looked at the Porsche option because I was put off by photos on an ebay listing of a Sprint
that had a Porsche radiator fitted. There appeared to be no radiator vent and the top hose was a poor fit.
(Not to mention the bodywork.)

A series 1 Porsche 944 radiator is nearly twice as dear as the Saab one I bought :shock: and I would need to trade in
my black Wellington boots for green ones.......
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The............

#11 Post by sprint95m »

sprint95m wrote:"Could you use the SAAB's fan as well?"
I will look at this option.
Simple answer is no.
The Saab uses a 35cm diameter fan on a sizable motor. Fitting this will mean relocating the radiator
closer to the front of the car (not practical unless the inner panel is modified) and this also means altering the bespoke
hoses (the current hoses fit well, so I'd prefer to keep them).
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Re: Saab 9-3 Radiator. Work in progress with photos......

#12 Post by Carledo »

I agree about the fan, I have the 9-3 rad in my Carledo and have the fan that came with it (cos mine was 2nd hand) I probably have more room than a Sprint and in my app the fan would have been an extremely tight squeeze. also my rad did not have a fitting for the fan stat so i've stuck to the Vauxhall viscous fan which i had anyway! ( First law of engineering = K.I.S.S, Keep It Simple, Stupid) My suggestion is to use a Kenlowe Which has a sensor probe into the top hose neck, an adjustable thermostat and a very thin motor, they're a bit pricey but might just be perfect for your car! If you want to try a 9-3 fan you're welcome to mine gratis as I'll never use it! Steve
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Re: Saab 9-3 Radiator. Work in progress with photos......

#13 Post by xvivalve »

What about the factor of materials, won't the original in copper and brass be a more efficient heat exchanger and therefore compensate (at least to some degree) for the smaller area?
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Re: Saab 9-3 Radiator. Work in progress with photos......

#14 Post by Oli_88 »

Alun, I'd say it goes a little way to bring the thermal efficiency up of the original one. But I'm not entirely sure if it'd counteract all of the greater surface area.
Unless you're stopped, then I think it might...
Some maths required!
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Hmmm..................

#15 Post by sprint95m »

You need to install temperature probes and take readings.

A few years ago T2000 specialist Chris Witor did this to test an "uprated" 2000/2500 radiator,
said item being of the same surface area but with an extra row of tubes (so was deeper). His test
proved the uprated item was merely more expensive, it offered no extra cooling at all.
The problem with they straight sixes is the engine oil overheating..........


However I am sure the Saab radiator works given that these cars have nearly 200 bhp :D .

So far I have found no difference to the running of this car since fitting the new radiator.
There is a cost advantage of £30 - 40 over a standard item? Incidentally there is a Seat radiator which
is almost a straight replacement for the standard item and these radiators are less than £40 brand new :shock: !


I have carried out a simple modification which has improved the heater a fair lot indeed :D .
This is not affected by radiator choice. However at journey's end, it is now very cold when stepping out of the car :( .
By far, the best improvement to a Dolomite's cooling system is replacing the expansion tank with a suitably located
alternative that has a low level warning sensor.
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