Tick tick tick tick nuts.

[tinweevil]

Getting a whole lot of sod all quite often when I turn the key in my 1500HL. I virtually always get at least one click, sometimes it takes an embarrassingly long time sat there listening to the solenoid. When it goes sometimes the cranking is really sluggish and others is seems OK. It's never what I would call lively. It is worse since the weather got cold but it's not been right since early this year.

Battery - Replaced just under a year ago, I could not get the high capacity type as they had just gone obsolete.
Alternator - Replaced 2 weeks ago, old one was a little low on the voltage but not bad. Changed it just in case.
Starter motor - Changed end of June from club, solenoid is not the correct item but it fits and does the job. Or does it?
Connections - All clean, secure, cables in good condition and no errant voltage drops in the cables while cranking.

The problem is not significantly improved by putting the battery on a charger/conditioner for 24 hours. I'm sure about the alternator, I well know the voltages to look for when checking that. But what about the battery, what should the cranking voltage be not less than? There's vids on youtube that state anything from 'not significantly less than 12v' to 'not less than 9.6'. Anyone know a definitive figure and what is the most repeatable way to test? Cold engine & no choke or hot engine & LT disconnected?

Ta chaps.

[matt of the vivas]

I dont know the 1500s well, so forgive the maybe daft question.. Is it a pre engaged starter? If so the most common cause is dirty internal connections either at the brush gear or the solenoid end cap. Especially common on "new old stock" starters that have sat round for ages before being used - i normally have to strip and clean anything thats been in our stores for years before it works properly..
Matt.

[triplesfanatic]

Julian,

Sent you a text.

Dave

[xvivalve]

The starter was a fully reconditioned unit. Sadly Mike won't be returning to work so his warranty is of no benefit. The original solenoid caps were found to be obsolete but he assured me the replacement he found was identical specification.

I have another unit here that you can swap to test the starter provenance if you want to eliminate that. Traveling to Cardiff tomorrow morning, coming back early evening. Would prefer not to pay to get into Wales! Send me a text with your post code, number is in the magazine.

[Edin Dundee]

In that case - battery.
You can do all the tests under the sun with a car battery, and many of them will show a duff battery.
But sometimes even a battery that has passed the tests will be faulty.
The other option is a dodgy ignition switch or poor connection somewhere - does the 1500 have the infamous shorting link on the gearbox connections?

[Jon Tilson]

I would say solenoid end cap is lossy or dodgy engine earth is the less lilely cause of this. Or sticking brush in the carrier?
I have had "NOS" starters on the 1850 that have lasted all of 5 minutes...so you cant always rely on new...Bosch one too in my case.

Jonners

[tinweevil]

Hmm thanks for that Bill. Although I query the solenoid the battery is a more likely explanation for the sluggish cranking. I've fitted a relay so that the power to the solenoid coil no longer goes via the ignition switch. Trip to kwik fit this week for their opinion on the battery I think.

I've measured the battery cranking voltage and v-drop in the cables individually but I've not tried measuring the voltage at the motor, that'll prove if the solenoid contacts are closing cleanly.

[MIG Wielder]

Hi Julian, Not sure about the 1500 but both 1850s and both Sprints I have ever owned have all had this Click-er Click-er Click-er problem.
There has never been any logical reason. Engine Hot or cold / Summer / Winter, I never really worked out what the problem was on any of the cars. I cleaned starter motors, cleaned solenoids, did cleaning of terminals and connections etc; etc;
What ever I did would usually sort the problem for some weeks, sometimes a couple of years but it would always return. I got close to finding the problem on CWL where I was able to measure the actuating voltage at the solenoid . It was only about 8 volts. But even taking a separate starter switch back to the battery only improved things briefly. I ended up using some thick cooker cable to actuate the solenoid and it would still drop volts. So I concluded it was short circuit windings on the solenoid, but I never took it apart to check sadly.
I think there may be more than one source of this problem, with different symptoms.
Since the solenoid current is returned to earth via the motor brushes, it can be a starter-armature/brush problem.
There is a holding coil that holds the solenoid in when actuated. If this doesn't hold, then you get the same problem.
If the motor fails to turn for whatever reason ......same symptoms.
Anyway when I first got SWK, within the first month it happened. Click-er , click-er click-er..
So I bit the bullet, spent the money and bought one of the Japanese hi-torque units.
This was on the grounds I had a similar unit fitted to the MG ( original died of old age ) and it was brilliant.
So here we are 31/2 years later and it has also been no trouble.
The funny thing is that this click-click symptom only happens on Dolomites.
I'd go Hi-torque .
HTH,
Tony.

[tinweevil]

That does help Tony thanks. I didn't know the solenoid return was via the motor, I thought the two were pretty much independent. Always good to learn.

Unfortunately I don't think hi-torque is an (easy) option on a 1500. The starter is unique to the model, I've no idea what what makes it so.

[Jod Clark]

All other cars using the OHV1500 have an inertia starter and the Dolly has pre-engaged. Switch to an intertia starter involves finding a flywheel from a Spit of Midget, or fitting the equivalent ring gear from those cars, as the tooth pitch is different.

I have a used 1500 stylee starter that I could drop in to you sometime....?

[trackerjack]

Sounds like a poor engine earth connection might be a problem, is it rusty?

[tinweevil]

Tony has corrected me on the hi-torque starters, Rimmers list them.
Jod, thanks for the enlightenment, I do wonder if Rimmers are accounting for this given the other models the same part fits. Thank you also for the offer, I'm nowhere near your run to the south east any more though Alun has beaten you to it too so I have one to try if the battery tests out ok.
All cables clean, tight and in good nick.

[soe8m]

High torque's do hi torque a not so long time.

Jeroen

[Jon Tilson]

I thought the solenoid actuation earth return was via the starter body, not the brushes and armature, which would make little electrical sense to me...
Of course the main starter motor current goes through the solenoid and to earth via bushes and armature....and field coils as well being pedantic...

If the starter solenoid clicks then it sounmds like its actuating...so if the motor then fails to turn it can either be the brsuhes not making good contact as they are worn or sticky, or insufficient current going through the solenoid due to the end caps or some other point of high resistance...very hard to detect with a meter, as all you can really see is the volts drop if you are lucky. On meter continuiity you dont get the localised heating and resistance rise as you all know...

My experience pretty much matches Tony's though as Sprint and 1850 starters work in a pretty hostile environment. All you can really do is minimise the risks by keeping contacts clean...and keeping periods of indolence to a minimum. The starter/ignition switch is also no great shakes long term either.

I'm far too much of a cheapskate to buy a non o-e one...
Ive done the starter conversion teh other way round on a Spit, using a 1500-HL starter when Fitchetts once sent me the wrong short engine.....
Much head scratching and non engaging starters ensued....
The flywheel boolt spacing was the issue between the doly HL example we got sent but I suppose the correct ring gear for the starter would also solve it...Fitchetts then sent us an HL flywheel with the ring gear for an HL starter that we ended up using.

However Ive found the bendix starter on Spits and 1300 dollies to be no advantage and if anything its less reliable...I'd stick with what you have and solve it....expecting it to return in due course and at the most inconvenient period and you wont be disappointed...

Jonners

[tinweevil]

Not the battery or alternator according to kwik-fit. Next step has to be change the starter motor again.

Oh and you know how intermittent faults never, ever display themselves when you try to demonstrate them at a garage? Started fine pulling out of work, started fine for the bloke moving it into a bay and then demonstrated it's party piece when I came to leave so much I began to think I was going nowhere.