steering issues etc part 2

[cliftyhanger]

Spent today on the Toledo, looking at the suspension and steering as I am entered in the CT winter (navigational 12 car) rally next Sunday.

Remembering a few things, I tried Jeroens "trick" of trying to ratchet strap the front of the front tyres together. Result, change of 12mm in tracking
After some faffing about, there is some play in the offside rack inner balljoint, and the nearside rack tube bush
Looks like the "recon" rack fitted a mere 20,000 (hard) miles ago is more con than recon.

Turned attention to the rear. Since I fitted Dolly 1500 rearsprings the car has felt skittish at the rear. So dropped the shocks, and took the springs off.
I then measured them open, and the original toledo rear springs. 20mm difference. I then placed a block of wood on each, and allied my approx 160lbs of weight. Both reduced in length by 30mm, so both springs must be 145lb/inch or thereabouts. I also checked some short springs I had, and they changed by 25mm, so about 160lb/inch. I also have some 25mm spacers...
Anyway, I decided that the car used to handle well with the old springs, but had a tendency to bottom out on rallies. But better that than the skittishness. So swapped back to the std toledo springs.
As a swerveball, I also changed the MGFwheels shod with Michelin E3B 185/55/15 to my trusty Falken 185/60/13's on GT6 5.5j rims.

The result. Skittishness gone! I could try the big wheels again, see if they are the issue, but my gut feeling is it is the springs. But no idea why as 20mm difference in height should not make the difference??

In other news, the std axle tie rod bushes (152767) that I fitted 14 months ago are cracking up badly. Well, 2 are, one each side.
Not wanting to fit any more cheap and fally aparty bushes, what is the consensus? I think polybush may be too hard?? is that right? What are the best to use??
And I think I need to ask about a recon rack....

[Carledo]

I had the same problem with rear springs on the Carledo. When I first built it, I fitted pre-owned standard Sprint springs (so about 140lb give or take some wear) and it was truly AWFUL, bumpy, skittery on corners and constantly losing traction on rough local roads. Great for drifting, but not much else. I've ended up with stock Toledo springs on Gaz ASPs with the shox set only 8 clicks from full soft. Also, I run the 195/50/15 Toyo Proxes on my MGF rear wheels at a mere 18psi for road and track and 12psi on the dragstrip. It sounds very wrong but the tyres are wearing evenly and it gives the best grip and traction like that. Blow them up to 25psi and you can FEEL the difference in the seat of your pants!

It's quite ok to use polybushes for the 152767 application, I found that even new rubber ones would not stop axle tramp on the dragstrip. I've now gone over to Chris Witor's Superflex and the situation is much improved. I have also polybushed the body ends of the tie rods, but i'm not sure I like the effect of that so much, it's probably helped to cut down tramp on hard starts, but it has also resulted in an annoying bush squeak on bumpy roads and much increased diff noise transmission into my untrimmed cockpit!

Steve

[cliftyhanger]

What I don't get though is the springs are the same rate (or at most 5% out, but I suspect they are the same) just a 20mm difference in open length.
Of course, the tyres may have made the difference, but I am racking my brains trying to remember when the skittishness stared. I know the springs were changed at that point, but very possible the wheels where done at the same time. I shall have to try the MGF wheels again when I get a chance, see what that does.

I shall get some polybushes (or at least the witor ones) and fit those, hopefully before the rally. But the rack is priority.

[Carledo]

I don't know how to find out the exact rate for Toledo springs, there is no mention whatever in the factory manual even! But they are considerably softer than Sprint ones. With the Sprint coilovers fitted I could not push down on the rear of the car at all, only the tyres deflected slightly! Going back to the original Toledo coilovers of course made it too soft! which is why I have the Gaz on the back as I can "dial in" a little extra stiffness with the shox! It's not ideal but without info I don't possess and can't find, it was the best I could do and it seems to work in practice, the car is pretty neutral and well behaved on most surfaces (though it doesn't like soaking wet much!)

Steve

[sprint95m]

It does rather sound like the back springs.


For the front tie bars, a conversion to take the conical ST type bushes is the way to go?
https://www.chriswitor.com/proddetail.p ... 0084-80-2K
At any rate, that is what I am intending doing myself.



I for one will be interested to learn what difference (if any) refitting the MG wheels makes.




Ian.

[cliftyhanger]

It is the rear axle tie rods where the new rubber bushes have cracked up. I have ordered a set of superpro (witor) to replace them.

Recon rack sorted from Alun, so that is good news.

And spring rates are simple enough to work out. You just need an accurate weight (me!) and a ruler.
Measure how much the spring compresses with known weight, and work it out in lbs/inch. But the 1500 and toledo springs compress the same with me on them, so same rate.
Some motorsport retailers have spring testers, Rally design? probably others. But it isn't rocket science. It's Hookes Law!

Will refit the MGF wheels some time after next weekend. Got to see how rusty Lucy is as a navigator!

[Carledo]

I'd rather measure with something a bit more accurate than my 180+lb butt! I suppose a press with a pressure guage would do. But I don't have a spare Toledo rear spring to test, even if I did know where to find such a press (and I might)

Also, would it not be more prudent to test the pressure with preload on it, ie already fitted to a shock absorber? This would at least negate any differences in free length.

I've not tried my car on 1500 springs so can't say for sure what effect they would have, but ISTR that stock Sprint rear springs are 140lb so it's unlikely in the extreme that Toledo and 1500 springs will be stiffer than that as your measurements suggest.

Steve

[sprint95m]

It is the rear axle tie rods where the new rubber bushes have cracked up.

Sorry Clive, didn't pay proper attention .

As an aside, in the 90s I fitted new BL bushes to a Sprint axle. On checking one year later (prior to MOT)
I discovered that one of the rearmost bushes had split in several places almost through to the centre.
The replacement, again a BL bush, was fine.



Chris Witor is the EU distributor for Superflex.
I know nothing of Superpro.
When I fitted Superflex bushes to the early 1850, two locations required some patience,
namely the front ARB to subframe
and the back upper arm to axle,
in both cases I had to compress the bushes in situ overnight before I was able to fit the correct fixings.



I had a thought about the spring rates....
rather than the Dolomite back springs being too hard, are the front ones not hard enough?




Ian.

[cliftyhanger]

The front shocks and springs are the same as when I had the OHV engine in. Those springs I tested with my bodyweight (years ago!) and they were 160lb's from memory, so a little uprated. I do have some shorted dolly springs that have 175 written on them, I guess another check coming up! (current springs are proper Toledo type, smaller diameter than dolly ones, but I have new dolly shocks to fit too, at some point!)
In fact, the car used to handle well on the setup I have returned too. Lts of body roll at Goodwood, and Autosolos. But it did win its class of under 1500cc Triumphs at a CT autosolo a few years ago. Probably largely down to the fact I was doing a lot of events at the time, and most others were new to the discipline. But it did work well.

Do Dollys like to have stronger springs at the front? Or rear? or indeed, both?? Steve likes his std Tolly springs but has the luxury of adjustable shocks.

Oh, and typically the old bushes I replaced turned up today, looking pretty ok too. Not sure why I replaced them. The new ones are the Witor ones, so hopefully all will be well, especially when the "new" rack is fitted.

Cheers
Clive

[sprint95m]

Do Dollys like to have stronger springs at the front? Or rear? or indeed, both?? Steve likes his std Tolly springs but has the luxury of adjustable shocks.

Both 1850s and Sprints should have stronger front springs than the ohv engine models I understand*,
this is to take the extra weight of a slant four?
However, looking at the '76 parts book for front springs suggests it is not that simple:
Dolomite 1300 &1500.....217989
1500HL ..........................218323
1850HL (RHD).................217989
Sprint (RHD)....................TKC768

When looking at the LHD options for the 1850HL and Sprint it becomes a bit more curious:
1850HL (LHD)..................217989 for left hand side and 218323 for RHS and
218567 for Italy and also heavy duty for both RHD and LHD
Sprint (LHD)......................218476 LHS and 217989 RHS (no heavy duty option)

The back springs were the same on all models ('76 parts catalogue shows 218324).



Anyhow, I have used the standard height heavy duty springs from Rimmer Bros with adjustable height dampers and,
being happy with these for road use, will do so again.



Steve's Toledo is somewhat lighter than your's Clive, given that it has a Vauxhall engine and gearbox rather than a TR7/Sprint combo,
somewhere on here there is a photo of his car when it had Sprint springs......it looked like it was on stilts .
I don't have the kerbside weights to hand but seem to remember that a Toledo was quite a bit lighter than a Dolomite 1300?
What I am wondering is would your Toledo be better with a combination of heavy duty Sprint front springs and standard Dolomite back springs?



Ian.



* Back in the 90s I think I remember Jamie from Sprintspares quoting Sprint spring rates against the uprated ones they sold?
Sprintspares, as their name suggests, only really catered for Sprints (although obviously a lot of parts fit other models too).

[Carledo]

To your listing of springs Ian, I can add the Toledo ones, 217448 on the front and, a different one to your quoted all models rear, 217976. There is no differentiation between 2 door and 4 door models however, which is interesting as the 2 door is considerably lighter!

With regard to car weights, I normally go by the brake testing weight chart used at MOT stations. This gives the car plus the driver, fuel, tools, sundries, and "accumulated road dirt" so is a pretty good guide to a realistic kerb weight. The Toledo (again, no difference noted between 2 and 4 door) is given as 980kg and the Sprint is 1170kg which is quite a difference! The 1850 and 1500HL come out at 1140 and 1050kg respectively. As a guide to how much I have shed or redistributed, the Carledo weighs in on the rollers under the same conditions, at 842 kg (it's around 760kg without my bulk in it)

I can't now find a copy of the pic of the Carledo on stock Sprint coilovers, I think it has got lost with my PB account, but it did indeed look as if it was on stilts and was undriveably hard and stupidly roly-poly (It had no ARBs either then) It drove so badly in fact, that I almost gave up on it! But by then, the time investment was quite high so I persevered and got it to where it is now, which makes me feel like this whenever I fire it up!

Steve

Edit, I've just checked my Toledo brochure, which came with the car. Whilst it doesn't list kerb weights (too much to hope for) it DOES list max gross vehicle weight for both models and the 2 door comes out as only 20kg lighter which I find a bit unbelievable.

[cliftyhanger]

I guess mine is complicated.
It has a TR7 engine, sprint box and axle. So in many ways is similar to an 1850 less a bit at the back.

I can experiment with springs later. I have some stronger rears which are short, but have 25mm spacers so may work OK with the HD type front springs. Trouble is it is best part of half a day to swap them all over. And 5 minutes to test them after!

All for experimentation later. I don't want the car low, its trackdays are over but I hope it has a future with club level 12 car rallies and, fingers crossed, so Targas (BRILLIANT fun, as close to doing stage rallying as you can get without costing loads of money)

[Carledo]

I guess mine is complicated............. Trouble is it is best part of half a day to swap them all over. And 5 minutes to test them after!

This is EXACTLY why I opted for the Gaz! Yes they were expensive in initial outlay, but I didn't have to waste hours and hours trying different springs to account for all the variables I had introduced, never mind the cost of half a dozen or so sets of bespoke springs while I got it "just so". I just got standard length stock poundage Sprint front springs (£18 the pair, NOS from Stoneliegh show) and used my old but low mileage (41k) Toledo rears! The GAZ can be adjusted on the car!

Steve

[cliftyhanger]

My hat is off to Alun for the rapido delivery of a recon steering rack. And also Robsport, bushes ordered Sunday, delivered today.
All first rate (and to top it all, I found the water leak in a house that a plumber had spend 16 hours chasing!)
Today has been a good day. Rack and bushes will be fitted Saturday morning, and then off to Essex via London (to pick up Lucy) for the CT 12 car Sunday rally.....

[cliftyhanger]

Saturday saw the new rack fitted, and tracking sorted. Realistically I didn't have time to do the rear tie rod bushes and be able to leave home at 4pm,so that will happen another day.
The check was the 125 mile each way motorway blat to Essex, and the 84 miles of rallying.
The steering is much better. I still think it could do with more caster, so will have a look at that at some point. But the vagueness has all but gone. So the Club racks are rather good.

The standard Toledo rear springs are definitely too soft or short. The car bottomed out on numerous occasions with no real prompting. So next thing is to try the MGF wheels, and see if that causes the skipping about. Then try the 1500 rear springs again, see how that pans out. The rear shocks are fine when checked off the car. And I doubt adjustable shocks will help as the adjustment is usually rebound only, not compression.

I will also pick up a set of 175/70 13 tyres, probably Falken Sincera 832's which are just brilliant in wet conditions. Or maybe Uniroyal rain experts, another excellent rain tyre. These will then double as wet weather track tyres for my spitfire if needed.

All this won't happen for a few weeks as the car is in everyday use, and this weekend I MUST get a job done on the Spit so it can go off for arc welding (8mm plate!!) before my mate finishes work for christmas (ie end of next week!!!!) Plus I need to sort/paint a set of steel wheels as the ones I have all look a bit sorry for themselves.