Jag V6 4WD

[RichardHyde]

Morning all,

Somebody was planning a Jag X type conversion and had purchased a 3.0 V6 4WD donor.

Did this ever get built ?

Thanks, Richard

[sprint95m]

No.
https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... &start=105





Ian.

[TrustNo1]

One of many projects shelved by someone who doesn't realise the time, money and skill needed to do such a swap.

[cleverusername]

One of many projects shelved by someone who doesn't realise the time, money and skill needed to do such a swap.

Not to mention historic vehicle status, which require swaps limited to engines fitted to original models.

[Carledo]

One of many projects shelved by someone who doesn't realise the time, money and skill needed to do such a swap.

Not to mention historic vehicle status, which require swaps limited to engines fitted to original models.

Not true, my own Toledo has a Vauxhall powerplant, but still legitimately maintains it's Historic Vehicle status by conforming to the DVLA's "8 point rule".

However I can't see this proposed Jag powered car meeting that standard. Too much stuff going into too small a space to avoid some mods to the shell, which is the primary consideration on a conforming monocoque car, 5 of the necessary 8 points MUST be for an original spec shell, unmodified in any way save for the addition of a few strengthening or supporting brackets. Cut anything away and you're in BIVA territory, at least legally speaking. With all the aggravation that that implies.

It's a stupid rule, which, historically, has been flouted with near impunity by the modding fraternity since it's inception in the 1980s. Recently, however, DVLA has started to get tough on cars like this, with more than a few having their registrations revoked (meaning they can't be used on the road) and the modders are squawking about it. But it's the rule we have and we have to live with it!

These non conforming cars CAN be returned to the road, IF they can be made to pass the BIVA exam, (another bookfull of mostly useless and incomprehensible regulations, never designed to be applied to older cars) then they can be re-registered on a Q plate, pay VED for evermore and, of course, lose the few other minor perks like ULEZ exemption that historic status confers. It CAN be done, the guys at "Project Binky" that i'm sure we all know and love, are building their car to survive a BIVA, but it ain't easy! Which is why I employ the KISS principal to this, as I do to my builds, working to keep my car within the 8 point rule, life is simpler that way! I LIKE simple!!!!

Steve

[cliftyhanger]

Engine swaps do not affect historic status unless a lot of other stuff done.

Maybe you mean the mot exemption? Where the fitting most alternative engines means the car has been subtantially modified (exception being engine from same family or where such conversions occured within timeframes etc, details available on this forum somewhere)

[sprint95m]

Too much stuff going into too small a space to avoid some mods to the shell

How do you know?
From the thread on here I gather the 1500TC still has it's original engine in place.



Ian.

[Carledo]

Too much stuff going into too small a space to avoid some mods to the shell

How do you know?
From the thread on here I gather the 1500TC still has it's original engine in place.
Ian.

Yes the 1500 is still in place ATM. For the sake of the car, I hope it stays there!

But the PROJECT proposes to replace the 1500 with the motor and drivetrain from a 3.0 litre 4WD V6 Jag!

It's a big engine, but shear off a lot of unnecessary ancillaries and you might squeeze it in. Where the trouble will start, is with the 4WD gearbox and transfer box, the front diff and driveshafts and the fully independant rear axle. Getting THAT little lot into a Dolomite shell will be the 8th labour of Hercules. Getting it in without cutting the shell about, will, in my fairly experienced opinion, prove impossible. Ask the guys who've struggled furiously with a simple Mazda 4 banger, or a Rover V8 with only RWD. They'll tell you what a fight it is! Even a Sprint engine, developed and engineered by the factory, has it's breathing compromised by the shape of that little hole at the front of a Dolomite. And the large and obstructive subframe that blocks off most of the bottom of it!

I've looked, more than once, into the idea of fitting a (RWD only) 3.0 litre quad cam Vauxhall V6 into the Carledo. It will go in lengthwise, it will scrape in width wise and height wise and will bolt up to my Omega gearbox. The big problem is the exhaust manifolding and down pipes, with a convoluted and less than optimal gasflow bespoke 3 branch, the N/S is just about do-able. Clearance on the O/S however, is more than problematical, with the steering column obscuring the one possible route to the outside world for the offside bank exhaust. And that, basically, is why i've not done it, I won't hack a hole in the flitch and compromise the shell's status just for the sake of a few horses that i'll have trouble hooking up to the tarmac anyway. I can light up the rear tyres all the way through first gear and well into second with the miserable 140 bhp it has now!

Steve

[cleverusername]

One of many projects shelved by someone who doesn't realise the time, money and skill needed to do such a swap.

Not to mention historic vehicle status, which require swaps limited to engines fitted to original models.

Not true, my own Toledo has a Vauxhall powerplant, but still legitimately maintains it's Historic Vehicle status by conforming to the DVLA's "8 point rule".

However I can't see this proposed Jag powered car meeting that standard. Too much stuff going into too small a space to avoid some mods to the shell, which is the primary consideration on a conforming monocoque car, 5 of the necessary 8 points MUST be for an original spec shell, unmodified in any way save for the addition of a few strengthening or supporting brackets. Cut anything away and you're in BIVA territory, at least legally speaking. With all the aggravation that that implies.

It's a stupid rule, which, historically, has been flouted with near impunity by the modding fraternity since it's inception in the 1980s. Recently, however, DVLA has started to get tough on cars like this, with more than a few having their registrations revoked (meaning they can't be used on the road) and the modders are squawking about it. But it's the rule we have and we have to live with it!

These non conforming cars CAN be returned to the road, IF they can be made to pass the BIVA exam, (another bookfull of mostly useless and incomprehensible regulations, never designed to be applied to older cars) then they can be re-registered on a Q plate, pay VED for evermore and, of course, lose the few other minor perks like ULEZ exemption that historic status confers. It CAN be done, the guys at "Project Binky" that i'm sure we all know and love, are building their car to survive a BIVA, but it ain't easy! Which is why I employ the KISS principal to this, as I do to my builds, working to keep my car within the 8 point rule, life is simpler that way! I LIKE simple!!!!

Steve

Yes but if you need an MOT your vehicle isn't an a full historic vehicle, even if it tax exempt. Our rules are being brought into line with EU norms and I suspect this will continue even if brexit happens.

I don't that the low emission zone will allow classics with modern engines for very long, even though they do at the moment. It is too big a loop hole to exploit and I suspect will be tightened up at some point.

This isn't something I agree with, I think we should be able to mod our cars how e like, as long as it is safe but the regulation are going in the direction of being more restrictive with each passing year.

[Carledo]

Yes but if you need an MOT your vehicle isn't an a full historic vehicle, even if it tax exempt. Our rules are being brought into line with EU norms and I suspect this will continue even if brexit happens.

I don't that the low emission zone will allow classics with modern engines for very long, even though they do at the moment. It is too big a loop hole to exploit and I suspect will be tightened up at some point.

This isn't something I agree with, I think we should be able to mod our cars how e like, as long as it is safe but the regulation are going in the direction of being more restrictive with each passing year.

There's no such thing as a partially Historic vehicle, either it is, or it isn't! It's just 2 different agencies (DVLA and DVSA) having 2 different definitions of what constitutes substantially/radically altered. I'm quite happy to keep MOTing my car, I would anyway, even if it was stock!

Just WHICH EU norms are we talking about here, in Germany you can fail their version of the MOT for having the wrong MAKE of tyre fitted and engine swaps outside a direct replacement of the original unit are completely banned, But you can IMPORT a car already converted and that is OK, go figure! Other countries are more tolerant, pick your poison!

Yet another reason why I think leaving the EU is a good idea! The whole "big brother" scenario is a lot closer there than ANYONE thinks or believes! Everybodies personal freedoms are being steadily eroded, it's just being done in the name of safety to conceal the REAL reason which is total control of a docile population of sheeple by an unelected buerocratic elite. And that's enough politics from me!

Not that I really care about LEZ exemption, I hardly ever drive in cities anyway, but my improved car is a lot better for the environment than the original ever was! Which is probably why the loophole is still there.

If it gets much worse here, I may have to emigrate to the USA, where you really can do just about anything to a car and it will still be allowed on the road. Americans RESPECT cars and customizers like no other nation on earth!

Steve

[sprint95m]

Too much stuff going into too small a space to avoid some mods to the shell

How do you know?
From the thread on here I gather the 1500TC still has it's original engine in place.
Ian.

Yes the 1500 is still in place ATM. For the sake of the car, I hope it stays there!

But the PROJECT proposes to replace the 1500 with the motor and drivetrain from a 3.0 litre 4WD V6 Jag!


Steve

Thanks Steve, you were speaking the American way, using present instead of future tense,
hence my confusion.




Ian.