Fuel Injecting the Sprint

[yorkshire_spam]

I wonder how much SAAB altered the heads on later injected slant 4s? Wonder if the manifold off a 900 injection model would fit?

No.
Although you could probably adapt one I am sure,
I don't see any benefit given that new manifolds are available for slant fours?
The 99 had fuel injection from the mid seventies and that manifold could do
but is that not single point fuel injection?
Ian.

Saab 900 b202 inlet manifold. If it fit (which I accept your word that it wouldn't), it would be a cheap jump-start to a fuel injection project - they seem to go for 75-100 quid used.

[veloce_rosso]

So that engine started life as a 2.0 lt TR7 plant? How does that differ from the 16 valve on the Sprint? is it just 8 valve or is there witchcraft going on?

If I may expand a little on what Jeroen has said,
Triumph made electronic fuel injected versions of the TR7 (for the U.S. market).

The technology has moved on more than a bit since then, nonetheless the EFI inlet manifold
is still viable because it has both bosses and an inlet runner for each cylinder.
The manifold will fit both the later 1850 and the TR7 cylinder heads.
An early 1850 head will need the water transfer slot removed to accept the manifold.




Ian.

That just shows how ludicrous BL was back in the day: They make a fuel injection set-up for the US market yet keep the carbs for the UK and Europeans. Mmmm, that makes financial sense (not).

[veloce_rosso]

Because early fuel injection has no sensors how do you adjust them? The only carbs I've had on cars are Webers, Strombergs and Solex.

These are vacuum or mechanically aiflow controlled. Some are centrifugal with a 3 dimensional cam. There are Bosch inline petrol injection pumps similar like their diesel ones that are partlty vacuum controlled by jets around the throttle valve to have vaccuum signals to the pump. Changing these jets does alter the vaccuum ans so the mixture.

So many way's to control without sensors.

Jeroen

That makes sense. No modern gizmos to flash or bleep. So prefer the more basic set-up.

[Carledo]

Many years ago (like 1982ish) I owned a 64 Mercedes 220SE, yep a fintail! This has a purely mechanical fuel injection system and the metering unit did indeed look just like a diesel one, with 6 individual steel injector pipes. I got the car for £50 because the owner had removed the injection metering unit for overhaul (which cost him hundreds) but couldn't get it to run after replacing it! He was ready to put a match to it!

Having done a bit of time on Mercedes earlier in my career, i'd had some experience with these, so I did him the courtesy of towing it away, but it was running sweet an hour later! Another one I wish i'd never sold! As usual, someone made me an offer I couldn't refuse at the time!

Steve

[sprint95m]

[That just shows how ludicrous BL was back in the day: They make a fuel injection set-up for the US market yet keep the carbs for the UK and Europeans. Mmmm, that makes financial sense (not).

Is it really "ludicrous"?


The USA was the target market for all TRs including the TR7.
To be able to sell their cars there it was necessary to meet emissions standards,
which meant using Stromberg carbs on the TR7s. To improve performance they later went EFI.
(Lucas PI was never a viable option for the USA)

For the smaller European market they did indeed fit cheaper SUs but it is really a case of looking at what price the market dictates.
An average American's disposable income was way larger...



Where I think BL missed a trick was not introducing the TR8 years earlier than they did.



Ian.

[cleverusername]

Because early fuel injection has no sensors how do you adjust them? The only carbs I've had on cars are Webers, Strombergs and Solex.

These are vacuum or mechanically aiflow controlled. Some are centrifugal with a 3 dimensional cam. There are Bosch inline petrol injection pumps similar like their diesel ones that are partlty vacuum controlled by jets around the throttle valve to have vaccuum signals to the pump. Changing these jets does alter the vaccuum ans so the mixture.

So many way's to control without sensors.

Jeroen

That makes sense. No modern gizmos to flash or bleep. So prefer the more basic set-up.

The problem with that is it robs you of one of the main benefits of modern fuel injection. The sensors mean that a modern fuel injection is always perfectly tuned for the conditions the car is running in. Without those sensors the system will have the same weakness as an old fashioned carb setup, it will only be tuned to atmospheric conditions it was setup in.

I don't understand the hatred of sensors, that are pretty robust. Some car models do have problems with sensor failure but is likely down to cheap part or a poor design; that sensors themselves being problematic. The solution is simple, avoid cars and brands with those problems.

[cleverusername]

[That just shows how ludicrous BL was back in the day: They make a fuel injection set-up for the US market yet keep the carbs for the UK and Europeans. Mmmm, that makes financial sense (not).

Is it really "ludicrous"?


The USA was the target market for all TRs including the TR7.
To be able to sell their cars there it was necessary to meet emissions standards,
which meant using Stromberg carbs on the TR7s. To improve performance they later went EFI.
(Lucas PI was never a viable option for the USA)

For the smaller European market they did indeed fit cheaper SUs but it is really a case of looking at what price the market dictates.
An average American's disposable income was way larger...



Where I think BL missed a trick was not introducing the TR8 years earlier than they did.



Ian.

I wasn't around at the time but reading the history of the British car industry, it seems British car buyers were a conservative bunch and disliked new technology. Partly driven by the large fleet market, that wanted simple cars that were easy to maintain.

Hence why the 70's was dominated by rear wheel drive live axle setups, that is what the market wanted. I suspect the same is true of carburettors, private buyers could fix them on their drive and fleet buyers understood the tech. Unlike the more complicated mechanical fuel injection systems of the period, which could be expensive to fix and some systems had a reputation for being less than reliable,

[JPSPRINT]

Ancient reply I know, but that Weber Manifold / Jenvey throttle bodies / Emerald ECU combo sounds superb !
If anyone has installed this (or even EFI in general), please post pics

As you may have noticed, I contributed quite a lot to this thread! My EFi Vauxhall powered Toledo is still running faultlessly and the Omega (called something else in Oz but the same basic car) powered Sprint has now joined the ranks too. See my Project Dolomega thread in the resto section.

Despite the time lapse, i'm not aware of anyone who has yet completed a Jenvey/Mangoletsi-Weber/Emerald EFI conversion, mainly, I suspect, on the grounds of cost! It is by far the most expensive way of achieving the objective, if also the easiest in terms of time and effort invested as all the hardware is a simple "bolt on". I know a few who are thinking about it, some have been thinking since this thread was last active in 2017!

I think in this case, the British reputation for being a nation of "men in sheds" making stuff on very low or zero budget, is well deserved. Most of us would rather invest time than money! An American, I suspect would just throw cash at it and get someone else to do the donkeywork, but our minds don't work that way, "built not bought" is more than a philosophy, to me and guys like me, it's a way of life!

What the Australian take is on THIS debate, I don't know, from what i've seen of Oz customs (some of which have turned me green with envy) you are somewhere in the middle of the 2 transatlantic extremes, but that's just a gut feeling without much evidence.

Steve

Great post mate, much of that rings true for these parts as well..

I take your point well regarding the Jenvey stuff. Maybe there'd be a bigger EFI takeup if prices drop a bit or if the community could agree on a standardised map, I don't know. If there there was one car that deserved EFI, it was the Sprint!

[JPSPRINT]

My effort 10 years ago on an 1850. Another one is on it's way on a 2 liter rebored 1850 with 1850 head.

Jeroen

Great effort Jeroen

[Carledo]

I don't understand the hatred of sensors, that are pretty robust. Some car models do have problems with sensor failure but is likely down to cheap part or a poor design; that sensors themselves being problematic. The solution is simple, avoid cars and brands with those problems.

I don't get it much either, a long career spannering tells me that sensor failures are relatively rare. Sure the classic crank sensor failure that stops the engine is the one everyone complains about, pointing out that a set of points can be adjusted to get you running again where a crank sensor failure often means a recovery. But MOST sensor failures are just that, you get a management light and sometimes a rev or turbo restricting limp mode, but it will get you home!

And here's the clincher, a crank sensor may last the life of the car, at most, a modern will only get through 2 or 3 in a long hard life (200k+), a set of points needs adjusting and setting up at least every 3000 miles and replacing every 6000. With a lot of classic cars only doing 1000 or so miles a year, it's no big deal nowadays, but I remember the days when ALL cars had points and condensers, did 12000k miles a year despite these limitations and breakdowns from faults or just sheer lack of maintainence of these parts was comonplace to the extent of being totally unremarkable, it was just a fact of life! How quickly we forget!

A lot of modern failures are down to faults in emission control parts that have no direct bearing on engine management, particularly EGR valves and their associated parts.

But here's a thought, when I built the Carledo, the engine and all the electrical parts and sensors on it were used, the engine came from a 60k mile car that I knew was running when removed. I dropped the whole lot in, as it came, 9 years ago and have not changed a single part of the electronics since. Most of it, AFAIK, dates back to the donor car's build date in 1989. The only failure i've had AT ALL is the NEW aftermarket remote HP fuel pump and that died before i'd even managed a proper road test, a second hand Renault one I replaced it with is still going.

Steve

[veloce_rosso]

These are vacuum or mechanically aiflow controlled. Some are centrifugal with a 3 dimensional cam. There are Bosch inline petrol injection pumps similar like their diesel ones that are partlty vacuum controlled by jets around the throttle valve to have vaccuum signals to the pump. Changing these jets does alter the vaccuum ans so the mixture.

So many way's to control without sensors.

Jeroen

That makes sense. No modern gizmos to flash or bleep. So prefer the more basic set-up.

The problem with that is it robs you of one of the main benefits of modern fuel injection. The sensors mean that a modern fuel injection is always perfectly tuned for the conditions the car is running in. Without those sensors the system will have the same weakness as an old fashioned carb setup, it will only be tuned to atmospheric conditions it was setup in.

I don't understand the hatred of sensors, that are pretty robust. Some car models do have problems with sensor failure but is likely down to cheap part or a poor design; that sensors themselves being problematic. The solution is simple, avoid cars and brands with those problems.

You would if you had an Alfa Romeo. My JTS is a pig for Lambda sensors. They have 4. 2 underneath and 2 above the exhaust manifold. Usually the 2 tops are faulty, so I've had mine hard wired. Does that help? Slightly better. When they fail the engine management light comes on... permanently.

Sensors have their pros and cons but I would prefer to hark back to older technology.
I love the notion you can just get a modest toolbox out and fix most things where modern cars need to go onto a diagnostics machine and can cost a fortune before they even solve whatever issues you might have..

[cleverusername]

That makes sense. No modern gizmos to flash or bleep. So prefer the more basic set-up.

The problem with that is it robs you of one of the main benefits of modern fuel injection. The sensors mean that a modern fuel injection is always perfectly tuned for the conditions the car is running in. Without those sensors the system will have the same weakness as an old fashioned carb setup, it will only be tuned to atmospheric conditions it was setup in.

I don't understand the hatred of sensors, that are pretty robust. Some car models do have problems with sensor failure but is likely down to cheap part or a poor design; that sensors themselves being problematic. The solution is simple, avoid cars and brands with those problems.

You would if you had an Alfa Romeo. My JTS is a pig for Lambda sensors. They have 4. 2 underneath and 2 above the exhaust manifold. Usually the 2 tops are faulty, so I've had mine hard wired. Does that help? Slightly better. When they fail the engine management light comes on... permanently.

Sensors have their pros and cons but I would prefer to hark back to older technology.
I love the notion you can just get a modest toolbox out and fix most things where modern cars need to go onto a diagnostics machine and can cost a fortune before they even solve whatever issues you might have..

When have Alfas ever been reliable? I think that has more to do with the manufacture, than inherent problems with sensors.

[soe8m]

When have Alfas ever been reliable? I think that has more to do with the manufacture, than inherent problems with sensors.

That's just it. My 1996 587442km LPG Corolla has still all it's factory sensors fitted, even the Lambda sonde. Just changed the cambelt, oilfilter and plugs last december. The last time I did change these was around 297.000km.. Yes, you did read correctly.

It's my only "Steve" car. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Jeroen

[sprint95m]

Despite the time lapse, i'm not aware of anyone who has yet completed a Jenvey/Mangoletsi-Weber/Emerald EFI conversion, mainly, I suspect, on the grounds of cost! It is by far the most expensive way of achieving the objective, if also the easiest in terms of time and effort invested as all the hardware is a simple "bolt on". I know a few who are thinking about it, some have been thinking since this thread was last active in 2017!

Here you go Steve, moving pictures and a noisy soundtrack and all .....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njjH81WlUKo


and the 31 year restoration....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qAzQOx1Czo




Ian.

[Carledo]

Despite the time lapse, i'm not aware of anyone who has yet completed a Jenvey/Mangoletsi-Weber/Emerald EFI conversion, mainly, I suspect, on the grounds of cost! It is by far the most expensive way of achieving the objective, if also the easiest in terms of time and effort invested as all the hardware is a simple "bolt on". I know a few who are thinking about it, some have been thinking since this thread was last active in 2017!

Here you go Steve, moving pictures and a noisy soundtrack and all .....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njjH81WlUKo


and the 31 year restoration....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qAzQOx1Czo




Ian.

Really interesting Ian, both the EFi, which is pretty much what I expected to see and hear, a view of the dyno results would have been nice though and the 31 year resto, very obviously started when you could just stroll into your BL dealer and buy Dolomite panels off the shelf for peanuts!

To be fair to the man, (who looks familiar to me) he has done an utterly stonking job! That engine should be in a jewellers shop window along with the Rolex's! On a slight aside, did you notice the bullet connectors on it's obviously series 1 front sidelights? As was discussed in another thread?

The EFI this guy has used is (are) the straight Jenvey throttle bodies, undisguised by fake Weber bodies round them which seems to be the latest fad, EFI tricked out to look like carbs! I think on balance I prefer the honesty of this approach, yes it's EFi, DEAL WITH IT! Also probably a lot better access as the wiring isn't deliberately hidden for effect! Maybe a tad cheaper too!

Looking at the way this has been built, though the aspect and interior says normal road car, underneath is the beating heart of a proper racecar, You've got to love a sleeper and this is one of the best! For myself i'd forego some of the extreme tuning bits (that extravagantly beautiful banana bunch, the crank brace and ITBs) and use a single TB and plenum for more low down flexibility. But that's just me! And i'd use some of the money i'd saved to get some decent seats in it! I'm pretty sure the guy who designed the stock seats had a past life with the Spanish Inquisition!

Whatever, individual taste aside, he's done a magnificent job on a nice tidy early car (I wonder HOW early) My hat is OFF!

Steve