Urgent water pump question (I should call this car Christine)

[olr159w]

Hi all

So I haven't posted for a short while. All of the last rantings were in relation to the mystery noises and consequently how it is the oil pump could be vibrating against the rack mount when everything else looked ok and more or less measured the same as others cars.

There never was an answer to that but I did work my way through new anti roll bar fittings, replacement drag struts, flipping the engine mounts over, re-setting the height of the gearbox Volvo mount and using the stabiliser bar to provide a bit of "pull"

In doing all of this it came to light that one of rack U bolts had a stripped thread. Second most recent Christine (aka Stephen King) moment where the whole thing was back together but yet again the car found something new to save it the bother of having to exert itself back on the road. Just a couple of days ago I finished putting everything back together including some custom-fitted Sprintspeed rack mounts (custom fitted because of course on my car the welds at the edge of the rack vertical plates were more pronounced preventing simple assembly). For once the steering couplings did seem to align nicely and it all went back together ok before being dropped back on all 4 tyres for the first time in a few months. And a satisfactory gap between mounts and oil pump as well

Of course just lulled into false security. I started the car today, really looking forward to a road trip without the hideous pump-rack vibration, and the next and most recent Christine moment - a weeping water pump. It was of course all fine the last time it ran. Ten-nil to the car ..... more time resting in the garage.

So my water pump and related questions :
1) weeping from that slot underneath the pump means the water pump seals are dodgy? I read more than one comment that after a bit of non-use they might weep but then re-seal. Is that really true? Should I just drive it a bit to see what happens? How long might it take for the re-seal to be apparent?
2) I basically don't buy the above at all. So on the flip side how much risk is there in driving the car with a weeping seal? Could it quickly turn to a gushing seal? I wanted to use it at a wedding in a couple of months but I can't afford the risk of a breakdown
3) leaking through this slot is just a seal issue right? how hard is this job? I notice new improved spec whole pump from Rimmers are 225 ex VAT. Ouch.Can't help thinking while its apart it might be worth replacing whole thing but.....
4) .... at the same time what is the position re the electric water pump option? It can't be much more expensive. How easy/difficult is it to fit? Where can I source the parts ? (ideally a whole kit containing all necessary parts to blank off old pump and fit and plumb in new.
5) very concerned about being able to remove old pump for seals or complete replacement anyway
6) top hose to expansion tank : how hard is this to pres together; mine seems pretty rigid
7) ages since I did much with the cooling system so have forgotten : when refilling do you go to near top of domed thermostat top filler housing or is some space to be left

No evidence of any other issues. Car warms to normal temp and heater works. Has large % of antifreeze permanently - not sure what % - although a while since it was replaced

Really welcome any advice. Time is getting very tight re wedding esp if parts are coming from the UK

thks

[BobM]

Hi,
I have an 1850 with the identical pump. A few years ago after a winter lay-up it did exactly what you have experienced. The car has done very few miles since I rebuilt the pump and could not believe it could leak. It still weeps after a lay-up. However running the engine on a short journey always seals it once more.

Best of luck.

BobM

[James467]

They don't really like being left standing, do you know the history of the water pump? Although the Rimmers one is expensive, it comes complete with the brass bush and upgraded with the ceramic bush installed, it's a Stag one basically so you may be able to source one locally. I always fit this pump with a new bush in the block, RUK (Binny) and DTR both have them and Binny did the ten counties run and DTR towed a caravan four up with bikes to Wales and I believe Andy was trying to keep his speed down!!

What kind of weep is it? Is it a coolant dribble or just moist? They can weep a bit of oil, I have had this before and thought it was coolant. Try just running it for a bit, as long as the temps stay stable and there is plenty off coolant in the expansion tank you should be fine, you know when you have a problem if there is a distinct trickle running down the block. You run plenty of antifreeze so it may just be that the seals have just got a bit hard from lack of use, a couple of heat cycles normally softerns them up a bit.

Changing a WP isn't a difficult job, just fiddly and a pain because you have to remove the inlet. To do it right you really need to replace the bush in the block or you risk damaging the jackshaft. There is a great wiki article written by Jon Tilson on how to do it.

I wouldn't bother with a electric system unless you have a heavily modified car, the standard system in good condition is fine.

All the hoses should be quite supple with no cracking, if they are hard then it is probably time to replace some hoses!

When filling, fill to the top of the thermostat cover, if you have a big funnel that fits snugly into the hole then you can use this to provide a head of water whilst you run the system, it is how I always fill them. Also remove the expansion tank and suspend it on the bonnet, it will help bleed the system a bit.

[tinweevil]

1) Yes it is as James says. But don't give it too many chances. I would say 3 heat cycles of not more than gentle 20 km each inside a week. If it's still weeping after that it isn't going to take the hint.
2) Lots. It's winter down there but that only puts daytime temperature reliably below 'ridiculous'. An overheated head will warp faster than you can say 'my, that's expensive'.
3) Yes. Not terribly. Not used a Rimmers complete pump so cannot comment.
4) Forget it, you do not have the time to debug a complete system change in 2 months.
5) Forget it again. With not a huge amount of skill it's not a hard job. The most important tool in your toolbox is patience, there are some steps that need to be done gently.
6) If it's soft when cold stopped and rock hard when running hot you have a whole different world of pain ahead.
7) I can only add to James' advice squeeze all the hoses regularly as you fill.

Edited to add: I have a Christine too. Last time it went on road one of the s##t quality chain tensioners had got past my personal quality control. Of course it failed first time out and another complete front end strip down was required. On assembly I span it over on the starter to ensure the new tensioner kept the noise down and provided back pressure to extinguish the light. All good so I finished reassembly, plugs in, refilled the coolant, gave it a 2 minute idle (late by now) and retired to bed for the night.
Couple of days later start her up to enjoy a short drive and the oil light stays on - s##t! After much head scratching, rechecking of everything I'd done re-rechecking of everything I'd done and some more head scratching I figured out that the oil pump or drive shaft had utterly failed. It's still off road 10 years later.

[olr159w]

Thanks for all the quick responses

Some updates :

I will take hope from the idea it might self seal. I have only run engine a couple of times for maybe 10mins max first time and 5 mins the second. I need to take it for a drive to make sure the noises are gone so fingers crossed it improves.

If you look at the photo and zoom in you can see the little green pool in the slot. I would say its more of a dribble than just moist. A small trickle down the block in fact. Re Rimmers they have new part but also repair kit that appears to contain a ball-race bearing?

I am not too familiar with doing this job but have a recollection that doing it so it doesn't leak is a bitch. The current pump was serviced when the car had a resto in 2002 so its been there a long while. It won't have done many miles at all in that time - partly through lack of use and partly through being laid up with other woes. So its familiar with being left standing. It's just this is the first time there has been a consequence.

Wiki article I have seen referenced but page seems to be no more? Do you have a copy?

Larger hoses are supple - just that narrow one to exp tank is hard to depress. I was trying when not running with filler plug removed so hopefully no other issues.

I don't know if my car counts as heavily modified. Probably just "modified". It has fast road cam and harder valve springs. Lightened flywheel. Electronic ignition. Still the SUs. Different needles. K&Ns. Upgraded oil pump. Oil cooler. So nothing radical in the horsepower department

And :
1) Yes it is as James says. But don't give it too many chances. I would say 3 heat cycles of not more than gentle 20 km each inside a week. If it's still weeping after that it isn't going to take the hint.
>>> agree some short runs to see if it takes the hint. With the minor dribble already I am doubtful
2) Lots. It's winter down there but that only puts daytime temperature reliably below 'ridiculous'. An overheated head will warp faster than you can say 'my, that's expensive'.
>>> yes and so much worse here in terms of accessing parts or capable workshop
3) Yes. Not terribly. Not used a Rimmers complete pump so cannot comment.
>>> I tend to disagree. It's a cranky design and hard to get right but I might be over remembering
4) Forget it, you do not have the time to debug a complete system change in 2 months.
>>> well the question is how massive is that system change? It seems to me that with the standard pump replacement I have to take it all apart anyway (duh) and then put it all back together. The prospect of either step being smooth is not huge IMO and the prospect of it going back together without a leak not a certainty
But if I went with the electric pump then disassembly is the same - see comment below - but reassembly should be easier : the old pump location is bunged and the job to fit a DCraig pump to a bracket and then plumb to rad and to thermo housing is surely relatively straightforward? Wiring to the massive Dolly fuse location can't be that tricky either.
I still have the original fan at this point anyway. So the DC would just be a water pump not controlling anything else. I'm not clear if it needs "setup" or thats it.
Either way once done its done, probably works better and is a lot less likely to have a "disassemble whole of inlet side" problem if there is a leak of any sort.

5) Forget it again. With not a huge amount of skill it's not a hard job. The most important tool in your toolbox is patience, there are some steps that need to be done gently.
>>> but you need to remove the pump don't you. This involves a special tool. And you have to get the clearances right or the pump is damaged or inefficient - no idea how you would measure the clearance between impeller and housing, how would you even get to it?
And understand that with the available time if something goes wrong or a new part is needed then work stops for 2-3 weeks while an order comes from the UK. So I really need a plan that is going to work where the thing goes back together reliably. I have very limited faith around that TBH.
Which is why I tend to say to myself .......its the same or more money to get the new original vs the electric. So no great incentive there. And if I damage anything removing the old one that is likely to be less of an issue if just replacing with a bung. Further the electric option should just work whereas rebuilding std dopey design has potential problems around damage, leaks from slot once reassembled and clearance settings. Not sure I have the time (and certainly not the preference) to have to take it all apart again if it leaks after the first effort.
These are the reasons why I am considering electric.
Admit I don't know much about it yet and whether controller is needed or whether it's just on all the time?

6) If it's soft when cold stopped and rock hard when running hot you have a whole different world of pain ahead.>>> I think really the diameter just makes it a lot harder to squeeze is part of it
7) I can only add to James' advice squeeze all the hoses regularly as you fill. >>> yeah I recall that


Greatly welcome any further thoughts. Otherwise will report back after test drives (although I think we all know what is likely to happen here...)

cheers mark

[sprint95m]

These are the reasons why I am considering electric.
Admit I don't know much about it yet and whether controller is needed or whether it's just on all the time?

I learned the hard way...

You do NOT need a controller. It is a con.
Furthermore you do NOT need a second pump for the heater. That is also a con.
What you have to do is reroute the radiator bypass and heater return into the bottom radiator hose (before the pump),
you retain a thermostat.


There is an Australian company whose pumps create condensation which then, rather disconcertingly,
leaves a puddle below the car when it is parked
A google search will show that is the least of your problems......

Stewart Pumps in the USA sell an electric pump.
It is rated at 10,000 hours and pumps 200 litres/minute.
(I don't know if they export these to Australia, but you can buy mail order from Summit Racing)



Ian.

[olr159w]

Thanks Ian.

Quiz you a bit on that if I may.

I am not using this as a race car. Its a road car. It seems quite plausible to me that running the EWP at full tilt the whole time would cause a) over cooling and b) premature wear of the pump. That's where the controller comes in. I would have thought it was critical for a road car.

The whole heater circuit thing is oddly one of the things that deters me the most. With the standard pump there is the odd parallel pipe assy to the heater and it appears to route back through the inlet manifold to return to the thermostat housing via the little short joining pipe. The proposition seems to be that if the standard pump area is just a cavity and the pump is an EWP elsewhere then there will be no flow to the heater. a) why not b) what about the inlet manifold more to the point

What is the radiator bypass circuit - is this the same thing I just described? How would you go about rerouting same elsewhere? I'm not sure of the direction of flow but is it actually inlet manifold to heater and then return? In which case you take the flexible pipe where it joins back to the thermo housing and join it to the bottom rad house before the pump? Thus the pump is effectively sucking water round the bypass circuit?

Why can't you just leave it as is or would there be no flow round the bypass/heater?

And how do connect it into the rad hose and ho do you blank off the unused return port on the thermo housing? Honestly not sure I have the time, knowledge or confidence to be hand plumbing new cooling circuits.

As for DC pumps vs Stewart vs std mech pumps there are staunch advocates for all three. I assume its DC when you are talking about the Australian Co. "A google search will show that is the least of your problems......" - what does that mean? I've been speaking to others who have had them in cars for 15 years ? Not saying you're wrong just saying that everyones mileage seems to vary.

The fundamental issue is that there's not a lot to commend the std pump (dopey design, pita to fix..... but mine has been fine for years) and so when all apart the idea of EWP is appealing. But the heater bypass cct issue is a mystery and possibly killer issue. And if you do get the controller - as seems kinda crucial to me - then you apparently need a 20mm hole in the bulkhead to get the connectors through. 20mm is pretty big.

more 2c welcome from all

cheers

[Carledo]

On electric pumps, a) the heater circuit is FED from the inlet manifold and returns to the water pump housing in standard configuration. Moving the water pump means moving the heater return to below the pump else the heater won't work (less of a problem in sunny Oz)

I think the computerized control unit is a must, but i'm in England, the pulse control and no pump action at all till it's warmed up gives a quicker warmup and a better heater so better engine efficiency.

On the DC pump, there is NO support bracket, the unit is small and light enough that the hoses will hold it up.

You need 2 straight bits of hose to make a new 2 piece bottom hose, 1 either side of the pump.

It's my considered opinion that fitting a DC pump is the perfect opportunity to plumb in a proper header tank whilst you are at it.

For the Aussie climate, i'd do what DC suggest and run without a thermostat, trusting to the pulse controller to warm the motor quickly.

If you wire it the right way round, ie start INSIDE the car with the plug, you can just feed the wires through the big main loom grommet in the bulkhead near the steering column! The MOST complex bit of wiring is not wiring, but drilling a hole in the dash for the warning light!

I have a DC pump equipped Sprint on my drive ATM, i'll take some pics of the install for you and post them tomorrow or the day after at the latest.

Steve

[sprint95m]

I think the computerized control unit is a must, but i'm in England, the pulse control and no pump action at all till it's warmed up gives a quicker warmup and a better heater so better engine efficiency.

Why?
DC insist you need a thermostat (with two holes drilled through it ).

It is misleading to say there is no pump action Steve,
because, following DC's instructions, whilst there is zero movement of coolant during warm up, the pump actually sits and spins
for half the time
(obviously running dry like this shortens it's (already short) lifespan).

If you were to add a header tank plumbed into the bottom hose, then trust me, your problems really do begin....


Have a read of this Steve,
for me a lesson learned the expensive way....
http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/foru ... te-engine/

As I said, the controller is a con and so is the second pump.


Ian.

[MIG Wielder]

[

[Carledo]

I think the computerized control unit is a must, but i'm in England, the pulse control and no pump action at all till it's warmed up gives a quicker warmup and a better heater so better engine efficiency.

Why?
DC insist you need a thermostat (with two holes drilled through it ).

It is misleading to say there is no pump action Steve,
because, following DC's instructions, whilst there is zero movement of coolant during warm up, the pump actually sits and spins
for half the time
(obviously running dry like this shortens it's (already short) lifespan).

If you were to add a header tank plumbed into the bottom hose, then trust me, your problems really do begin....


Have a read of this Steve,
for me a lesson learned the expensive way....
http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/foru ... te-engine/

As I said, the controller is a con and so is the second pump.


Ian.

The car in my hands ATM has a DC pump with 8020 controller. I also have the instruction sheet (found it in the glovebox). It has no thermostat fitted and the bespoke brass bypass has not much more than a pinhole in it, just enough, I fancy, to let air bleed through on fillup. I discovered this as the O rings on it were leaking when it arrived and I had to remove it to replace them.

From my interpretation of the fitting and control instructions, you set a target temperature that you wish the engine to run at, from experience on this car, the default target is a tad high, I have to reset it often as I keep disconnecting the battery to stop it going flat every few weeks! But when started from cold, it's my understanding that there are 3 stages, during the first few minutes of starting from cold the pump doesn't run at all, once a threshold temperature is achieved, the pump runs in increasingly long timed pulses until the final stage of constant running or the target temperature is reached.

This particular car has an MGB dual capillary water temp and oil pressure guage fitted but confusingly the water guage is calibrated in degrees Fahrenheit and has no "normal" marking on it. However the car seems to reach 180oF fairly quickly on default and stay there. If you leave it running stationary for long enough (and it takes a while) it will eventually get to around 200F and the fan deploys. I've not driven it much on the road yet for various reasons, but i've no reason to doubt it's effectiveness. The heater isn't much cop, but i've not yet relocated the heater return.

I can't see how there could be zero water movement if the pump is running, it has to go somewhere! Even if only through the block/head and inlet to the H piece and back, there will be SOME movement! This assumes a stock stat is fitted, without one the water can circulate around the engine and rad anyway.

And I don't understand your reference to the pump running "dry", it's very low on the engine, the water level would have to be unforgivably low indeed, for the pump not to be submerged.

I know you had problems with your 1850 and got a first hand look at it after Bruce sold it to Stewart. and whilst I applaud your inventiveness, I don't yet see the need for most of it!

Steve

[olr159w]

All

I just greatly appreciate your prompt feedback, thank you so much.

I still haven't driven the car yet but will do so asap and see what the results are. Meantime the feedback is great and I have also spoken with DC pumps and got some other feedback outside this thread.

So, various :

1. understand from DC that
- issue of connectors through bulkhead now minimised by it being detachable. one concern down
- fitting of inline temp sender for controller is threaded into adapter that needs to go in top pipe. second concern down; no need to somehow literally inset into hose !
- issue of heater cct can be resolved with second pump although I'm not necessarily a fan of bothering with that at least for now. Part suggested has inlet and outlet at right angles and its hard to understand where you might fit that in the bypass cct. Also not clear how one would energise this given Dolly heating is mech lever for valve. But I'm not clear either on how you would return heater cct back to bottom pipe ahead of pump and actually make that union a) at all b) leak-proof
- pump doesn't really need a bracket at all and especially in our case where any weight is effectively suspended by hose directly beneath thermo housing
- made suggestion that alloy body might be a preferred option and certainly sounds more attractive than nylon

2. Am not clear why bypass cct goes through inlet manifold. Suggested that its actually to heat it not cool it as I had assumed but this is not part of weber manifold anyway so wtf

3. Any pics of fitting, locations, cable runs, fusebox works etc certainly appreciated

4. Am currently of view that I will go with DC combo kit (ie incl controller), probably the larger capacity alloy one, no mounting bracket, bung in old cavity obviously, no thermostat as DC advise, new pipe and O ring thermo housing to manifold and no attention to heater cct (unless compelling info is forthcoming gents)

5. Carledo - the bespoke brass bypass of which you speak. What is this? The pipe between thermo housing and manifold? Why just a pinhole, as supplied its just a short pipe?? Also the warning light you talk about - that's to warn you of what? .. pump fail? overtemp...? ??? ??

My view of going this route is that it truly doesn't sound that hard to do and if I have to take all the apart anyway I'd rather repair with a better solution less likely to leak and much easier to repair in the future if the need arises. And it's likely to be cheaper than a new mech pump

Nearly there I think. Any further thoughts on above or photos much appreciated. I don't have time to learn during the job so much therefore trying to meticulously plan so that it goes as smoothly as possible

cheers mark

[sprint95m]

I'll try and explain this Steve

I can't see how there could be zero water movement if the pump is running, it has to go somewhere!

The pump has to have a supply. The radiator only provides this when the thermostat is open,
therefore using the DC system, since there is no radiator bypass, when the thermostat is closed there is no supply

And I don't understand your reference to the pump running "dry",

In the above scenario the impeller is rotating but not actually pumping coolant because there is no feed.
Rather deviously, DC issued a warning about running their pump like this......


There is a fuller explanation in the thread I posted a link to.
DC's leaflet of instructions is utter pish because the controller does not work.
DC do not provide a rating for their pumps, instead they say up to 2000 hours.
In the link you will read that John Benson repeatedly lied to me.
If they were honest, DC would give refunds.


The set up on the 1850 is the universally standard set up of pump, radiator, header tank, thermostat and bypass
with the heater in parallel...
I will give in to sarcasm to say, with the added disconcerting propensity to leave puddles of water below the car.


My conscience won't let me not speak out about this,
I would hate for others to make the same expensive mistake as me.


thanks,
Ian.

[olr159w]

... and yet there seems to be a long list of satisfied customers?

From what I've read if you use the controller you take the thermostat out and you must use their inline sensor

[sprint95m]

... and yet there seems to be a long list of satisfied customers?

From what I've read if you use the controller you take the thermostat out and you must use their inline sensor

No, the DC instruction for a slant four is to retain the thermostat (and drill two 5mm diameter holes through it !!!)

The list of dissatisfied customers is longer and longer and longer.
Just do a Google search....

I have told you how it is, it is all in the link I posted earlier. All I can do is warn you.
If you choose to believe DC then that is entirely a problem of your own making.


Ian.