73 Sprint parts catalogue

[Carledo]

I'm very aware that BL wouldn't advertise their homologation specials as such, again, in my opinion, this was more to do with keeping their real intentions (motorsport) away from the acccountants! Money being VERY hard to come by in the stoney broke BL of the mid 70s!

But there is a world of difference between building 50 odd Tr7 Sprints (an undeniable stopgap in the grand scheme and not difficult as both bodies and drivetrains were available from stock) or even 500 TR8 hardtops, most of which would have sold anyway to the US market desperate for power to match the looks (how many of those 500 were BUILT LHD?) and the whole Sprint thing.

Building 5000 Sprints in a year, just to do the BTCC and a few rallies is a whole other level of cost and involves the total development of the 16v engine to power it. I can't accept that they could put a scam of that magnitude past the number crunchers. I'm sticking with the legend as far as the first 2000 being a try out, on balance of probability and my knowledge of the ultra conservative workings of Triumphs marketing dept. Whilst the comp dept may well have HOPED for (and thoroughly loved and exploited) the outcome they got, with 5000 Sprints built in 73, I don't believe they could have seriously planned for it, or even helped it along much. At best they could have expedited the production of the last few to make numbers up by mentioning the possibiliy of track success in 74.

I'm also aware that Triumph in particular were in the habit of selling off (usually internally, within the company) fascinating prototypes and development 1 offs rather than scrapping them as most other manufacurers did (and still do) As proof of this, I offer the Herald hatchback (which it was my privilege to own for some 15 years) the similar T2000 hatchback (used as a comp dept hack, then as a development testbed for the Lucas PI then sold off, it still exists) The beautiful Triumph Fury prototype which is still preserved in private hands and the TR7 based Lynx conserved at Gaydon. Besides those, a friend of mine is the current owner of a 1980 registered, RHD, TR8 convertible, which was a works development car, having some unique aero mods and uprated suspension and brakes. This was sold off when the TR7/8 was shelved and bought by a couple of guys on the development team who took it a couple of stages further, with nearly 300bhp on tap, it's a ferocious beast!

Steve

[GrahamFountain]

I didn't say (or at least I didn't mean to say) that the Dolomite Sprints were built solely to homologate the car for Group-1. Rather that the engine was developed by, or at least with help from, Coventry Climax primarily for competition, by implication, with less emphasis on its cost than might otherwise have been the case.

And the facts stand - BL needed 5000 to take advantage of that opportunity created by the BTCC going to Group-1 and Ford/Cosworth's inability to make enough BDG engined RS1800 to get that homologated for that. And BL didn't achieve that production target so closely in 1973, and build the team that did so well in completion in 1974, without someone somewhere doing some planing going back at least a few years - thinking otherwise is naif. And from what info I can find, Spen King must have been well in that loop. BLMC in the early 70s will have had an internal structure full of little empires, where the left hand was itself hidden from the right, not just what it was doing.

As a result, the first 5000 must have been built in the number they were for that homologation - the match is too close for coincidence. And there will have been efforts put into achieving that - lies will have been told and pups will have been sold and glutei maximi kissed in that. That makes those first 5000 special; even if their simply being "specials" is arguable.

Graham

[Carledo]

I'll have to check the annual production figures that are around this forum somewhere, but I KNOW it took from Jan 74 till about Sept 75 to build the "other" 5000+ series 1 cars that actually made it out of the factory gates. I suspect very few were built in the early months of 74, so they could sell the "homolgation" cars first!

I think you are correct in that they couldn't miss the opportunity to homologate the model simply by failing to build sufficient cars and that the production figure for 73 is no coincidence. But I still think the car would have needed to prove itself by SALES before the marketing department would commit themselves to building that many cars "on spec". Triumph's Marketing department pretty much had the final word on production, if they didn't think they could sell it, it didn't get built, end of! And they were extremely reluctant to stick their necks out!

And I don't know how much notice was given of the homologation rule changes that effectively outlawed the Escort Cosworth which gave the Triumph the edge in 74, but it certainly wouldn't have been enough to formulate and carry out the Sprint racing program. It must just have been serendipitous that Triumph were in (or very close to) a position to exploit Ford's misfortune (which I think you are also correct about the origin of, ie political and malicious machinations!)

I didn't seriously mean to imply that the 16v head was SOLELY developed to go racing with, though that would be an obvious possibility, nearly all the manufacturers at that time were experimenting with multivalve tech and the track was the place to prove it. But the concept and design must go back to the late 60s at least, I can't see that what ACTUALLY happened in the early 70s was predictable then, either in terms of BL going broke (bad) or Ford being banned from Gp1 (good).

Steve

[GrahamFountain]

But I still think the car would have needed to prove itself by SALES before the marketing department would commit themselves to building that many cars "on spec". Triumph's Marketing department pretty much had the final word on production, if they didn't think they could sell it, it didn't get built, end of! And they were extremely reluctant to stick their necks out!

Steve

You got any evidence for that? Even other changes to the engine within a model range (I'm not sure about the set of differences between 1850 and Sprint other than the engine, gearbox, axle, and subframe, or which of those were parts bin bits) where they set-up to build a few thousand before making a decision to continue or not?

The problem I see in that is that once BLMC had the production capacity to build 2000 Sprints in 5 or 6 months, it's obvious they had committed more than 70% of the up-front expenditure needed to build 5000 in a year; probably much closer to 100%. Obviously, I don't have the numbers for how much of an engine cost is amortization of the costs in implementing its production facilities. But for the parts specific to the 16-valve slant-4, I imagination it would be a big fraction if it was amortized over only a few thousand engines. So, I can't see how the end of building the first 2000 (or 2200) cars can possibly represent such a decision point - it will have cost far less to build another 3000 than it cost to build the first 2000. And, given de-prioritization of that production, very little extra (over the cost of building 1850s) to build the decreasing numbers of Sprints in the next 4 or 5 years.

I aren't saying there wasn't such a decision made. I just think it has to be either earlier, based on proper market research, or later - at least after the first year of production and possibly just in front of the changes made for the 1977 year model.

Also, I reiterate that AROnLine has the intent to use it in motorsport as a major component in the reasons for the development of the 16-valve slant-4. I also think the flagship model effect of the Sprint may have been compelling enough, and you may be underestimating the influence of the charismas like Spen King on S&M.

However, there may, even then, have been more than half an eye on possibilities in the 16-valve slant-4 supporting SD2 in breaking into the US market and in solving the problems in the lackluster performance of the US spec TR7. Those options were still around till 1975 when those (and the slant-4 RedCo and electronic injection) programmes were canned. And I can see how those major production car programmes might have needed proof of concept from several thousand 16-valve slant-4 cars. But I still don't see the end of the first 2000 as being that much more significant than the need to build 5000 in a year.

On a separate issue, is there any information on chassis numbers and build dates for the mimosa cars, i.e. excluding inca cars, outside the first 2000/2200 before June/July 1973?

Graham

[xvivalve]

5446 Sprints were built in 1973

[GrahamFountain]

5446 Sprints were built in 1973

Approval was given on 2 Jan. 74 and there will have been some delay between achieving the required 5000 and issuing the approval. There should be a date for reaching 5000 in the FIA Form of Recognition (https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/defaul ... roup_1.pdf), but it's blank. Only 446 built in 73 after meeting requirement seems few. But maybe the lack of a date shows there was some hurry.

Graham

[GrahamFountain]

Thinking about the form of recognition, is that car, which is arguably the holotype, known?

Assuming the interior pictures are of it, it has nice grain on the dash wood.

Graham

[xvivalve]

i.e. excluding inca cars, outside the first 2000/2200 before June/July 1973?

There were no Inca cars built before 1976

[GrahamFountain]

But what about mimosa cars after June/July 73 and CN 2000/2200?

Graham

[Carledo]

There's no data on colour outside of individual vehicle records at Gaydon, as given on heritage certificates. Whilst the records are available to view, it would mean plowing through the individual build sheets for some 15000 series 1 and 2 cars to get numbers of Mimosa cars built. And some are missing or incomplete. The 8th labour of Hercules if ever I heard one!

I've had a similar discussion before with a guy who claimed that only 4 Sprint autos were finished in Magenta, HOW WOULD ANYONE KNOW? I've actually disproved this anyway as I personally know of 5 SURVIVING Magenta autos! But even the exact number of automatic Sprints isn't known (though a figure of around 1700 is a fair guesstimate) let alone what colour they all were!

The prototype Sprint that features in the earliest brochures, according to another legend, actually began life as a white LHD 1850 nicked off the line by the experimental department and hastily resprayed in Mimosa for the publicity pics because there weren't any production models available when going to press. This last seems a bit odd as the first 2000 production models were being built as early as Feb 73. One would have thought that there would have been 1 or 2 productionised cars around by then. But who knows, with the strikes, chaos and launch delays the Sprint suffered, anything is possible!

Steve

[GrahamFountain]

I assume that, with the introduction of Inca in 76, the yellow cars after that would not be mimosa. If that's correct, its only the records for the series one cars that matter - still a big task though. But that's the sort of thing individual/club records could at least shed light on. Something might also be gleaned about the prevalence of mimosa cars between July 73 and whenever the 77 year model came on stream in 76. It certainly looks as though they were at least rare in the 3000 odd cars from later in 73.

Graham

[Carledo]

I assume that, with the introduction of Inca in 76, the yellow cars after that would not be mimosa. If that's correct, its only the records for the series one cars that matter - still a big task though. But that's the sort of thing individual/club records could at least shed light on. Something might also be gleaned about the prevalence of mimosa cars between July 73 and whenever the 77 year model came on stream in 76. It certainly looks as though they were at least rare in the 3000 odd cars from later in 73.

Graham

After the 76 rationalisation, all yellow cars would be Inca rather than Mimosa (VA 20000>) So you'd be looking at 10,000+ series 1 cars (VA 1>) built between roughly Feb 73 and August 75 and a further 3,000+ series 2 cars (Sept 75 - mid 76, VA15,000>) that might have been Mimosa, or one of 10 or more other choices. Apart from the first 2000 and the ones exported to Oz (250? 500?) all being Mimosa my impression is that, including Mimosa the distribution otherwise seems fairly average among all the colour choices.

Steve

[GrahamFountain]

my impression is that, including Mimosa the distribution otherwise seems fairly average among all the colour choices.

Steve

You got numbers - how many of the colours of how many cars?

Graham

[Carledo]

my impression is that, including Mimosa the distribution otherwise seems fairly average among all the colour choices.

Steve

You got numbers - how many of the colours of how many cars?

Graham

No I don't have numbers! That's why I wouldn't commit myself beyond "my impression". My impressions have been gathered over a lifetime of association with Triumphs and attendance at more shows than I care to try and count, including more than a dozen TDCIRs.

In truth, at any show where a number of Sprints is present, the predominant colour is yellow (combining Mimosa and Inca) with probably the red shades a close second and a smattering of all the others (white brown blue and green, Magenta is a red shade, donchya know?) But the absolute logic of that is skewed by the presence of early cars at shows, the "first 2000" have acquired an almost religeous significance, are most likely to be restored and to a higher standard than any other particular Sprint (with the possible exception of original Magenta cars which have a loyal following of their own) However the Magenta owners enthusiasm must be tempered by the fact that Magenta is a relatively rare colour.

If you look at the later 76> palette which includes Inca and ignore the earlier cars, the incidence of yellow cars is still pretty high and there is no bulk build of yellow cars in the later range to skew the figures. And you cannot deny that, in the minds of some afficionados, Yellow, preferably Mimosa, is the ONLY colour to have a Sprint in!

Can't understand it myself, given my 'druthers, i'd prefer Sapphire or French blue. I hate red as a colour, but such are the vagaries of the market that both my cars are red, Carmine and Vermillion, the level I buy at, I can't afford to be fussy about colour!

Not a statistical universe I know, but I just checked my Shropshire AO lists of members cars which shows 7 Sprints, 2 Yellow (1 of each) 1 Magenta, 1 French Blue, 1 White, 1 Vermillion (mine) and one Carmine. Yes, more reds than yellows, but if you consider there was only ever one yellow shade available at any one time (I don't count Honeysuckle, it was officially a white shade and extremely rare on Sprints anyway) and always 3 red shades on offer, I'd say thats a fairly average distribution. The single Mimosa car is a late series 1 75 car.

Steve

Steve

[GrahamFountain]

Unfortunately the data I have, mostly from Mike Barker's records, only goes to the mid 7000's in chassis numbers.

That has nothing but yellow cars to about 2100 except one respray, and only 2 yellow cars from above 2200, either or both of which could be resprays, because of the cashet of yellow Sprints.

The set is heavily skewed to the sub 2000s, as you suggest - 23 out of 51.

Of the unyellow ones, it shows white (8) and french blue (8) as the most common, and magenta least common (2).

It would be interesting to know where the Australian mimosa cars fit in the production schedule.

Graham