Went to my 1850 auto this afternoon and on turning the key with the car in park - no response at all.The car as always started first time but today nothing.Eventually found the starter motor and solenoid after jacking up the car.Traced the wires back to a multi plug, checking for loose terminals and everything seems fine.Looked for a nut on the end thinking I could release the starter if it was jammed but there isn't one so gave the starter a gently tap with a hammer and tried it again and it did one click but then nothing.
I don't really know where to start and obviously can't take it to the garage without a transporter. I just think it might be something simple as it has always worked fine before.
Any help would be appreciated. Alan
Starter dead don't know where to start
-
GrahamFountain
- Guest contributor
- Posts: 1735
- Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:35 pm
- Location: St Annes on Sea, Lancs.
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
I have, on a few occasions had starters refuse to engage and got them to work by putting the car in gear and moving it a small distance so it turns the engine a little - a fraction of a turn. However, when this has worked, the problem has only gotten worse over time, and needed a replacement starter as a long term fix.
Still, on the off chance it works for a bit, it'll let you get to the garage.
Graham
Still, on the off chance it works for a bit, it'll let you get to the garage.
Graham
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.
Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).
Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).
-
GrahamFountain
- Guest contributor
- Posts: 1735
- Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:35 pm
- Location: St Annes on Sea, Lancs.
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
I've never tried with an auto. If that won't turn by pushing the car when out of park, do you have a big socket or spanner with which to turn the engine by hand (ignition off, of course)?
Graham
Graham
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.
Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).
Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
As fas I know you can't turn an automatic's engine by pushing the car. And have you tried to get a large socket on the crank pulley of a slant engine? I don't think its possible with the radiator in place.
When my 1850 suffered similar symptoms it was intermittent. I would turn the key a couple of times and nothing happened. Then the next turn would see it start as normal. I fixed it by installing a starter relay. The inital current to fire the solenoid is large and I think old key switches get to a point where they just can't pass the load. Some references say the inital load is 30 amps or more, and 8 - 10 amps once the starter is turning.
Ah-ha. I have just found the article I read that told me about the slant engine starter problem. I don't know who wrote it but I do know that Tony (Migwielder) on this forum has talked about it too. Have a read of this. It makes sense to me as I have two MGBs and they never have this trouble.
Mike
When my 1850 suffered similar symptoms it was intermittent. I would turn the key a couple of times and nothing happened. Then the next turn would see it start as normal. I fixed it by installing a starter relay. The inital current to fire the solenoid is large and I think old key switches get to a point where they just can't pass the load. Some references say the inital load is 30 amps or more, and 8 - 10 amps once the starter is turning.
Ah-ha. I have just found the article I read that told me about the slant engine starter problem. I don't know who wrote it but I do know that Tony (Migwielder) on this forum has talked about it too. Have a read of this. It makes sense to me as I have two MGBs and they never have this trouble.
Mike
- Attachments
-
- Dolly Starter Relay_20201206_0001.pdf
- (631.01 KiB) Downloaded 214 times
Mike
(1969 MGB GTV8, 1977 Dolomite 1850HL, 1971 MGB roadster now all three on the road)
(1969 MGB GTV8, 1977 Dolomite 1850HL, 1971 MGB roadster now all three on the road)
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
If it is an auto and you get nothing when you turn the key, not even a click, then the chances are it could be the inhibitor switch on the gearbox. Try moving the gear selector back and forth a few times from park through reverse and neutral to drive and back, this operates the plunger on the switch anf might persuade it to conduct!. If it then starts then either the switch needs adjusting or it is on its way out.
You and also check by TEMPERARILY bypassing the switch just to see if it is the problem. DO NOT leave it in the bypassed state, it is dangerous if you then start the car in gear it will immediately move!!
If it is a poor feed from the ignition switch down to age, high resistance contacts etc. then you usually get a click from the solenoid but no turning of the motor as there is not enough current to "smack" the solenoid to the end of its travel and make the high current contacts close properly. It is this "click nothing" that the relay mod is supposed to fix. It is not a guaranteed fix as often the solenoid contacts themselves are burnt and pitted and need refacing or replacing.
Roger
You and also check by TEMPERARILY bypassing the switch just to see if it is the problem. DO NOT leave it in the bypassed state, it is dangerous if you then start the car in gear it will immediately move!!
If it is a poor feed from the ignition switch down to age, high resistance contacts etc. then you usually get a click from the solenoid but no turning of the motor as there is not enough current to "smack" the solenoid to the end of its travel and make the high current contacts close properly. It is this "click nothing" that the relay mod is supposed to fix. It is not a guaranteed fix as often the solenoid contacts themselves are burnt and pitted and need refacing or replacing.
Roger
1975 Sprint Man O/D in Honeysuckle Yellow
1971 Stag Auto White
Too many cars, too little time!
1971 Stag Auto White
Too many cars, too little time!
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
marshman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:07 pm If it is an auto and you get nothing when you turn the key, not even a click, then the chances are it could be the inhibitor switch on the gearbox. Try moving the gear selector back and forth a few times from park through reverse and neutral to drive and back, this operates the plunger on the switch anf might persuade it to conduct!. If it then starts then either the switch needs adjusting or it is on its way out.
You and also check by TEMPERARILY bypassing the switch just to see if it is the problem. DO NOT leave it in the bypassed state, it is dangerous if you then start the car in gear it will immediately move!!
If it is a poor feed from the ignition switch down to age, high resistance contacts etc. then you usually get a click from the solenoid but no turning of the motor as there is not enough current to "smack" the solenoid to the end of its travel and make the high current contacts close properly. It is this "click nothing" that the relay mod is supposed to fix. It is not a guaranteed fix as often the solenoid contacts themselves are burnt and pitted and need refacing or replacing.
Roger
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Hi Roger I will try moving the gear stick about tomorrow, if that fails how do I temporarily bypass the switch and where is it please Alan
-
dollyman
- TDC Cheshire Area Organiser
- Posts: 1410
- Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 6:28 pm
- Location: NANTWICH.
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Hi Alan, not just a duff battery by any chance? Or terminal on the battery? Also Check if there a live feed going to the small terminal on the starter while tuning the key.
Tony.
Tony.
NOW A CLUB MEMBER 2017057 
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Hi Alan,
I don't have an auto myself and must admit I thought Dolomites were fitted with the BW35 same as the Stag but just looked and they have the BW65. On the BW35 the inhibit switch has a plunger and screws into the box (not relevant I know!) and requires some fine adjustment to work correctly. On the BW65 the switch is on the lefthand side (passenger side on RH drive) just above the pan (sump) and just behind the bell housing. (see attached pic). It is a rotary type and has no plunger. There will be four wires going to the switch 2 for the starter (in and out) and 2 for the reversing lights. You should be able to see the loom with the four wires and follow it back to the box. You should be able to "buzz" the wires out with a multimeter to work out which 2 are the starter in hibit and which 2 are for the reversing lights. Once you have identfied the correct two the disconnect from the switch and join together - AS I SAID EARLIER ONLY DO THIS TO TEST IT, DO NOT LEAVE IT IN THIS STATE - you will end up starting the car "in gear" with the inevitable consequences!
It is usually possible to open the switch and clean the contacts if this is the problem. A replacement is not cheap these days and a lot of them don't last long!
Roger
1975 Sprint Man O/D in Honeysuckle Yellow
1971 Stag Auto White
Too many cars, too little time!
1971 Stag Auto White
Too many cars, too little time!
-
Richard the old one
- TDC Member
- Posts: 1217
- Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:06 pm
- Location: Bristol
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Can I suggest you read the replies to the post I started on the 27th August titled "Is it advantageous to fit a relay in my Dolomites starter circuit".
I have produced an article for a future edit of Dolly Mixture on how I fitted relays in my 1500HL Dolomites.
Richard the old one
I have produced an article for a future edit of Dolly Mixture on how I fitted relays in my 1500HL Dolomites.
Richard the old one
-
Carledo
- TDC Shropshire Area Organiser
- Posts: 7242
- Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:12 pm
- Location: Highley, Shropshire
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Go about it logically, check the battery first, then move on to the large leads making sure all connections are tight, including the earth straps.
Next, test the starter itself by removing the White/red wire from the solenoid and running a jumper cable from the starter terminal now exposed to battery positive (ensuring car is in Park) If the car then cranks, the starter is OK and you should look elsewhere. If it doesn't, the starter is duff.
If it cranks from a jump cable, next step is to check the power at the end of the red/white wire at the starter (again check it's in P) you may need to get someone to turn the key for you as this lead is ONLY live when the key is in the start position. Power there? fit a relay as obviously not enough power to fire the starter.
No power there? next to check is the inhibit switch. This is on the side of the trans and horribly difficult to access (tunnel out basically and you'll STILL struggle, even though there is a purpose made access hatch in the tunnel to reach it, it's not big enough to do anything through) Fortunately there is a cheat in the form of a 5 wire terminal block where the trans sub loom meets the main loom. This is located on the drivers side of the bellhousing, around the area the clutch master cylinder would be on a manual car. It can be recognised as a 5 wire plug with only 4 wires in it. 2 are green and 2 are larger and white/red. It's these white/red wires that concern us. Disconnect the plug and test both white/red wires on the BODY side of the plug for current, (volunteer needed on the key again) only one should be live at this point. If you have that one live, bridge the 2 white/red wires at the plug and try cranking again (I use an opened out split pin to make the bridge) If it cranks when bridged, you are in a world of pain as the inhibit switch is duff.
If neither white/red wire is live at the underbonnet plug, remove the column shroud and check the white/red wire at the ignition switch, no current here indicates a faulty ignition switch. There is one further plug to check for continuity if the switch pole is live, this is under the dash to the left of the steering column and requires some acrobatics to reach, again look for the white/red wire and check both sides of the connected block for current.
2 further points, a) the inhibit switch (should you need one) is currently ONLY available from Chris Witor, it's £65 + VAT and carriage (ask me how I know!) I've had ZERO joy repairing them, it's delicate, complicated internally and rivetted together. It's also SO difficult to replace that you don't want to fix it and then have it work twice and fail again! Bite the bullet and get a new one.
Point b) Whether or not the inhibit switch HAS failed, I recommend fitting a starter relay to auto cars, simply to protect the delicate little flower that is the inhibit switch, if you saw the internals of it, theres no way you'd trust it to carry starter current. Relays are cheap, readily available and, if sensibly located, can be changed in minutes, the inhibit switch has NONE of these favourable attributes! FIT A PIGGIN RELAY, you know it makes sense! Needless to say, the relay should be on the starter side of the inhibit switch.
Steve
Next, test the starter itself by removing the White/red wire from the solenoid and running a jumper cable from the starter terminal now exposed to battery positive (ensuring car is in Park) If the car then cranks, the starter is OK and you should look elsewhere. If it doesn't, the starter is duff.
If it cranks from a jump cable, next step is to check the power at the end of the red/white wire at the starter (again check it's in P) you may need to get someone to turn the key for you as this lead is ONLY live when the key is in the start position. Power there? fit a relay as obviously not enough power to fire the starter.
No power there? next to check is the inhibit switch. This is on the side of the trans and horribly difficult to access (tunnel out basically and you'll STILL struggle, even though there is a purpose made access hatch in the tunnel to reach it, it's not big enough to do anything through) Fortunately there is a cheat in the form of a 5 wire terminal block where the trans sub loom meets the main loom. This is located on the drivers side of the bellhousing, around the area the clutch master cylinder would be on a manual car. It can be recognised as a 5 wire plug with only 4 wires in it. 2 are green and 2 are larger and white/red. It's these white/red wires that concern us. Disconnect the plug and test both white/red wires on the BODY side of the plug for current, (volunteer needed on the key again) only one should be live at this point. If you have that one live, bridge the 2 white/red wires at the plug and try cranking again (I use an opened out split pin to make the bridge) If it cranks when bridged, you are in a world of pain as the inhibit switch is duff.
If neither white/red wire is live at the underbonnet plug, remove the column shroud and check the white/red wire at the ignition switch, no current here indicates a faulty ignition switch. There is one further plug to check for continuity if the switch pole is live, this is under the dash to the left of the steering column and requires some acrobatics to reach, again look for the white/red wire and check both sides of the connected block for current.
2 further points, a) the inhibit switch (should you need one) is currently ONLY available from Chris Witor, it's £65 + VAT and carriage (ask me how I know!) I've had ZERO joy repairing them, it's delicate, complicated internally and rivetted together. It's also SO difficult to replace that you don't want to fix it and then have it work twice and fail again! Bite the bullet and get a new one.
Point b) Whether or not the inhibit switch HAS failed, I recommend fitting a starter relay to auto cars, simply to protect the delicate little flower that is the inhibit switch, if you saw the internals of it, theres no way you'd trust it to carry starter current. Relays are cheap, readily available and, if sensibly located, can be changed in minutes, the inhibit switch has NONE of these favourable attributes! FIT A PIGGIN RELAY, you know it makes sense! Needless to say, the relay should be on the starter side of the inhibit switch.
Steve
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!
Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!
Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.
-
xvivalve
- TDC West Mids Area Organiser
- Posts: 13569
- Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:13 pm
- Location: Over here...can't you see me?
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Isn't a simple test for the inhibitor switch to try starting it in 'N' instead of 'P'?
Are the contacts on the starter motor clean? The smaller of the two spades is very susceptible to dirt and gives this symptom...
Are the contacts on the starter motor clean? The smaller of the two spades is very susceptible to dirt and gives this symptom...
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Yes it is.
Some people are like Slinky's, they serve no real purpose in life but bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.
-
Carledo
- TDC Shropshire Area Organiser
- Posts: 7242
- Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:12 pm
- Location: Highley, Shropshire
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Actually not a very good test at all in the Dolomite's case! Because of the way it's designed internally, the same piece of mechanism rotates with the centre of the switch to contact the start terminals in 2 of 6 positions. If the switch has failed in Park, it will almost certainly be equally dead in Neutral. This has always been my experience with failed inhibit switches on the BW65.
A better test is to stick it in reverse and see if the reverse lights work. Since the triggering mechanism is all driven together, if the inhibit function is dead, it's likely that the reverse light function will also have failed. But even this isn't conclusive!
One further thing to check has come to mind! Have a good grovel underneath and check that the shift change rod is still attached at both ends. If the rod parts company with either the selector quadrant or the trans (and it's only secured with a thin metal clip at each end) partway towards Park, there's a 50/50 chance it won't crank cos the inhibit switch thinks it's in D or R!
Steve
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!
Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!
Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Thank you all very much for all your help.
When I tried the starter the next day after posting instead of nothing I heard a click.
The first thing I did was fully charge the (new) battery.
I watched a really excellent video on you tube that explains everything you need to know about the starter circuit (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBNtSgfCkk a much watch, it's made by a teacher from the Community College of Philadelphia CCPTV production.
After doing all the checks including checking that I had a feed from the ignition key and the inhibitor etc I then put some small jump leads across the solenoid and the starter went into action.
So I think the solenoid is the problem. I spoke to my local auto electrician supplier and he didn't recognise the part number quoted above but he said that if I brought the starter and solenoid in he would either find me one or order a replacement.
I told him the solenoid had four wires not three and he said the smaller wire was a cold start wire, what ever that is.
The other problem is removing the motor itself. I can't even see the top bolt so I have ordered a endoscope camera so I can locate one end of the nut and bolt fastening. Incidentally he bottom nut and bolt was hanging off.
Alan
When I tried the starter the next day after posting instead of nothing I heard a click.
The first thing I did was fully charge the (new) battery.
I watched a really excellent video on you tube that explains everything you need to know about the starter circuit (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBNtSgfCkk a much watch, it's made by a teacher from the Community College of Philadelphia CCPTV production.
After doing all the checks including checking that I had a feed from the ignition key and the inhibitor etc I then put some small jump leads across the solenoid and the starter went into action.
So I think the solenoid is the problem. I spoke to my local auto electrician supplier and he didn't recognise the part number quoted above but he said that if I brought the starter and solenoid in he would either find me one or order a replacement.
I told him the solenoid had four wires not three and he said the smaller wire was a cold start wire, what ever that is.
The other problem is removing the motor itself. I can't even see the top bolt so I have ordered a endoscope camera so I can locate one end of the nut and bolt fastening. Incidentally he bottom nut and bolt was hanging off.
Alan