Honeysuckle 2-door toledo - NBP

[jackharper]

Hi guys,

thought I should make a separate thread for my 1973 2-door toledo as I don't want to get the two mixed up! Here are some pics of it, as you can see it's in OK condition, has done 40 ish thousand miles however the odometer has been swapped so sadly it's no longer accurate. I have owned this car for just over a year now, haven't really done anything to it besides service a brake caliper as it seized on, easy enough job to do as it's the same caliper as many BL cars of that era.











The car needs a few bits doing of course, which i shall be doing shortly:
- Starter I'd like to replace to a pre-engaged model as I'm not the biggest fan of inertia-types due to the relay they add, for some reason a single unit item seems a better idea rather than a relay sat in the bay
- bonnet needs spraying, I have a NOS one for this
- rust is starting to form in a few places including the vents on the top of the rear window
- steering bush needs replacing with a solid one, lot of play in the steering wheel
- gearbox bush needs replacing as it's not very tight, gearbox is the early 3-rail? one that feels like a spoon in a bowl of treacle to shift gears with.
- there are a couple of places underneath where light rust is forming so i'll need to catch those before any holes start appearing
- drivers seat is slightly ripped, not really that bothered by this

the car has had some filler used but I don't think it's ever been welded and looks OK. it's tuned very nicely and feels almost as if it's just been driven out of the showroom which is an absolute luxury!
This one out of my two I consider to be the show pony, it's not perfect and never will be but I think it's a bit of a gem. Will try and take pictures of anything I fix on it, currently sat in dry storage so hopefully doesn't deteriorate too much in that time.

Cheers
Jack

[Tony Burd]

That's a nice original looking 2 Door Toledo, where did it come from, did you get any history with it?

[jackharper]

That's a nice original looking 2 Door Toledo, where did it come from, did you get any history with it?

Cheers Tony! It started life in Sussex, then went up north to Warrington - I drove back last year in it which was about a 4 hour journey (going steady) with no problems! As for history I have quite a bit, including the original purchase receipt and service history from 1973 until 1982 ish. I think it had been on and off the road since then and dry stored. There are a couple of small rusty bits but it's all pretty much original bar a few things like the washer motor bottle, I have a spare to go in at some point however.

When doing the brake caliper it was almost as if it had never been taken off - all of the bolts were pristine and there were no signs of rust on the threads, absolutely mind blowing considering how old it is.

[jackharper]

Time for a quick update - I have managed to source a NOS Lucas M35J pre-engaged starter motor to go into the car, I am aware i'll probably need a spacer for it as it has an inertia starter on there currently. I prefer these as they're an all-in-one unit and have the solenoid attached to the body, and in my experience are less likely to chew up starter ring gear teeth. I believe the current starter has done exactly that to my ring gear so have bought one of those to go on as well. I haven't actually seen the car since putting it in storage early this year so ought to pull my finger out when back to normality a bit more.



Before putting it away my girlfriend and I went to a cafe in it, look how small it looks compared to the massive modern cars around it! To think the one to the left is still called a Mini..

[Carledo]

The size of the Toledo is a positive advantage to me, living, as I do, in the wilds of Shropshire, I can pick a path round the plentiful potholes and still stay on my own side of the road, whereas the much wider modern stuff has only a single path to follow if they wish to stay inside the white line on my local B roads and accept whatever the road throws at them! It is more nerve racking to drive the wider vehicle in such circs, I sold a lovely Volvo 850 estate for that reason. And if they meet an oncoming bus (we still see one from time to time) or truck, modern car drivers hunch their shoulders, close their eyes, wince and pray! I don't even slow down!

Steve

[jackharper]

The size of the Toledo is a positive advantage to me, living, as I do, in the wilds of Shropshire, I can pick a path round the plentiful potholes and still stay on my own side of the road, whereas the much wider modern stuff has only a single path to follow if they wish to stay inside the white line on my local B roads and accept whatever the road throws at them! It is more nerve racking to drive the wider vehicle in such circs, I sold a lovely Volvo 850 estate for that reason. And if they meet an oncoming bus (we still see one from time to time) or truck, modern car drivers hunch their shoulders, close their eyes, wince and pray! I don't even slow down!

Steve

Hah, I think country lanes were probably designed for cars our size.

I am pulling my finger out and have ordered up some bits for the tolly, here is a list of what's to go on

some 5.6mm r9 fuel hose
some 8mm (or slightly under) r9 fuel hose - both of these should hopefully be enough to do all of the flexible hoses from the tank to the carb.

A pair of new pistons and seals for each caliper - last time i took the car out the other side binded and melted a load of hub grease, so i'm going to do both at the same time for peace of mind

a starter ring gear as mine is missing a couple of teeth
a NOS pre-engaged type M35J starter motor - hoping this will go on without any sort of spacer, but we'll see. Can always go back if required. Pretty sure the brushes in the inertia type starter are the same, and are OK anyway, so the ring gear being replaced might make it start every time anyway.

Whilst the car is up on the ramp (I take it to a place where you hire by the hour) I might look into sorting out the horrendously vague steering. There is about 2 inches of play in the steering wheel before the wheels actually turn. I want to replace the bush at the bottom by the rack with a UJ - I know this isn't original and it's designed to take some shock, but it's f***ed at the moment and I want to be able to feel the road. Rally design are supposed to make these but I can't find which model I need. Also, Rimmers make this now, not sure if it's any good? has anyone used it and more specifically on a toledo with a shaft that isn't telescopic like the sprint models?

In other, slightly related news, I proposed to my partner this weekend and she said yes, so that's given me some motivation to get the Toledo out and make sure it's ready for the big day!
https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-FAM1718UJ

[JPSPRINT]

Love the colour mate!

Also congrats on your wedding proposal, lovely car for such a day..

[jackharper]

Love the colour mate!

Also congrats on your wedding proposal, lovely car for such a day..

Cheers mate! The colour suits the occasion, or at least my better half thinks so!

Bit of an update, I haven't worked on the car til yesterday for several months, in fact I hadn't really got the car out of storage once. I have now moved where it is stored to a place near my in-laws and can go and tinker a bit more easily now, though i've had to paint the garage and do a few bits for security.

First priority when the car was up in the air was to sort the brakes - not sure if i posted on here but a while ago after being sat the brakes had started to bind, this became an issue and i got stranded on the side of the road once as the passengers side caliper had got so hot it was boiling the hub grease... sorted that fairly easily, new pistons and seals and a slight hone of the cylinders and that side was all good.

Since then I took the car out once and within a few minutes the brakes were binding on the drivers side...

I booked some time on the ramp and sorted them out, piston was VERY stubborn and only with compressed air AND a screwdriver on each side did it fancy budging. Here are some pictures of it, as you can see it was rather corroded, hence the seizing.










Gave the cylinders a good sorting with some fine steel wool, and to my eyes there wasn't any serious pitting so fairly happy they should last some time. I think the underlying cause is that the car wasn't being used, I have done less than 500 miles since owning it I think.

While up on the ramp I did a couple of other things, had a brief look to check for rust, there wasn't anything hugely bad though the subframe, suspension arms, springs etc are a bit worse for wear. I may tidy these up at some point but don't feel like I need to rush to do so, and as a whole I think it's pretty good for nearly 50 years old. Some welding has been done by the sills, though it looks like just a patch was done either side. Seemed fairly strong to me, though we ended up mounting the 2-poster's jacking points on the front sills and on the rear trailing arms. Here are some more pics that I grabbed while she was in the air!













After I drove back to the garage its now being stored at, I decided to have a quick look at the fuel lines, all this news about more ethanol in petrol has made me pull my finger out and buy some R9 hose for the car. I didn't spot any flexi lines from the tank to the hardline, but now looking at the pics i took there is a tiny one I think, so will sort that when next with the car.

From hard line to the pump the hose looked like this, so glad i changed it. for info this pipe is 8mm I.D. on a toledo - think it was the same on my dolly 1300.

old:



and new:



I did try and replace the pipe from the pump to carbs, but shortly realised that:
A) most of the pipe was already plastic! which probably won't degrade due to ethanol
B) the hose starts at 8mm I.D. at the pump then shrinks down to 5.6mm at the carbs - so need to formulate a joiner/adapter for this. I have bought one on ebay which looks like it's designed for an old VW so guessing they have the same issue.

So left it be.


Also while up in the air, I did have a bit of a play with comparing the starter motor that was on the car (inertia type m35G) that i believe is sh*gged and clunks like mad on the starter ring gear and sometimes gets stuck, and a NOS Lucas M35J Pre-engaged type (same as a dolly 1500 I have confirmed, thanks Matt!). I believe it may well go on with the spacer used for the inertia type, but need to do some more investigating. It would be nice to have a reliable starter motor, and the M35Js are nice and easy to replace brushes on etc, as well as the fact they tidy up the engine bay because they don't require a separate starter relay. Still not really sure how to fit it, wondering if the ring gear itself is different, so would appreciate some advice if anyone has done it before to a Toledo!

Another thing I had a brief look at was the steering column as the steering is quite vague when driving along. When the car is stopped and i turn the wheel the joint (pictured) turns with almost no play at all so suspect it is all fine. I am wondering if some polyurethane bushes on the rack may help. I think most of the play is exaggerated by the huge steering wheel too, but it'd be nice to sort out to the best I can. maybe it's the lack of anti-roll bars, may fit some of those and some dolly springs (a bit lower and firmer I think?) at some point, though i'll try one thing at a time and see if it helps.



So all in all, very slow progress has been made, but the car is now somewhat safe and driveable again after the brakes had seized up and should hopefully stay that way with less occasional use. We now have sheltered parking spaces at work, so I may take the car in for a week just to see what it's like to daily drive. Hope you are all doing OK?

[jackharper]

Brakes are now all fine, and I took the car out to a small church fete with some other classics, though sadly didn't get any pictures of it there. Went out and did a fair old distance afterwards however and the car behaved nicely, although I need to do something about the starter motor even if it's just replacing it with another inertia type.



It's got me thinking though - as much as I love this car, my old dolomite 1300 felt so much more agile to drive. I'm thinking it might be to do with the suspension setup on a dolly versus a toledo, as dolomites are a bit firmer and lower. I know it's not keeping the car original but I am a bit tempted to swap some dolly shocks and springs front and rear, and polybush everything while i'm at it, as the springs are quite rusty looking and bushes are all a bit worn. I may also fit a front anti-roll bar from a dolomite too - probably won't bother with a rear one as I don't think it'd have much of an effect.

I don't plan on building a race car out of this one, and everything I do to it I'd like to be able to bolt on/off to return to original if I fancy, though it would be nice to make the car feel a bit more planted on the road - going round corners at the moment doesn't inspire all that much confidence.

Not going to do any of this in a hurry as it's nice I can now drive the car, so will probably wait til all of the shows (although many have already been cancelled) are finished for the year.

[Carledo]

A Toledo IS a bit roly poly compared to a Dolomite.

Some would describe it as part of the car's unique character, I say rubbish, it is short of a few essentials to save money!

Step up to the antiroll bar on the front, this will make a masive difference to roadholding and it's simple to do, all the mounting holes are there for it. A few judiciously placed polybushes are fine, don't go mad and fit the lot, it's overkill and will make the ride too harsh.

The other thing i'd do that is easily reversed, is go to some late Spitfire 5j rims and 175/70 tyres.

I wouldn't bother messing with springs and shox unless you've got deep pockets to finance a lot of trial and error. Put, for example, a set of coilovers from a 1500HL on and it will be a tad firmer (which is good) but will ride HIGHER, due to the Tolly's lower weight (which is not so good)

On your starter motor issue, it's worth noting that inertial and pre-engaged starters use different ring gears, PE ring gears have a chamfer on the teeth on the engine side, inertial starter rings have a bigger chamfer on the gearbox side of the teeth. But a PE starter is not so fussy and you MIGHT get away with it. I'd leave it stock purely on cost grounds, an inertial starter is a lot cheaper (and easier to source) than the almost unique-to-model 1500 OHV Dolomite PE starter (1500 Spitfires and Midgets use an inertial starter)

However I DO suspect, from your descriptions that the ring gear is a bit iffy. If this IS the case and if I were you, i'd pull the box out and fit a 1500 Spitfire flywheel with the bigger clutch that goes with it and a new inertial starter. This is NOT as bodgy as you'd think, Toledos built for the BSM fleet actually had these parts from the factory, to take a better pounding from learner drivers!

Steve

[jackharper]

Cheers for the info Steve, all very helpful! I guess I am on the lookout for a dolly anti-roll bar as well as the front brackets that hold the semicircle shaped bushes then!

I may try and fit the PE starter I have just as a stop gap, though I think like you said it's probably worth sticking with an inertia type in the long run as they are so common. Spitfire flywheel sounds a good idea.

As far as polybushing I think I might just try and get the rear radius arm bushes replaced and the steering rack bushes. I guess while i'm putting the anti-roll bar on I could polybush those too. The subframe bushes did look a bit worn when up in the air too so might do those at some point over the winter!

[mahony]

Are you sure that lower steering coupling hasn't had it ?, from the pic the rubbers look shot

[jackharper]

Are you sure that lower steering coupling hasn't had it ?, from the pic the rubbers look shot

hmm, maybe it has, on the ground when steering there wasn't any play but i wonder if it was at the end of the play anyway... do you know where i'd find a replacement bushing? I don't really want to swap to the UJ style coupling as i've heard they can be a bit rubbish quality wise?


Have bought an anti-roll bar, just need to find the two brackets that hold it now!

[Matt Cotton]

Hi Jack.

Chris Wittor has the bushes available. Looking at your picture I think it looks like the coupling is wire locked, so it should be easy enough to rebuild. Richard has detailed this info in the latest Dolly Mixture too.

MC

[jackharper]

Hi Jack.

Chris Wittor has the bushes available. Looking at your picture I think it looks like the coupling is wire locked, so it should be easy enough to rebuild. Richard has detailed this info in the latest Dolly Mixture too.

MC

Cheers Matt, will get some ordered. That reminds me, I need to renew my club membership..

edit:done!