1975 1500TC – Anti roll bars

[naskeet]

I don't want to tell you how to suck eggs but the spacers on antiroll bar go inbetween the channel on the tie bar thus bringing the end of the tie bar down, somebody else might be able to post a picture,

There is a good illustration in the Haynes 1500TC and HL manual on page 158 - "front anti-roll bar attachments"

As two others have noted Barry, you have incorrectly fitted the spacers at the far outer ends of the front anti-roll bar. They are supposed to fit inside the C-shaped cross-section links, not on top of them!

Of course, I had the advantage of seeing how they were fitted on the Dolomite Sprint from which I salvaged my front anti-roll bar in 1982, as well as having access to an official BLMC Triumph Dolomite Sprint workshop manual.

[bazyerma]

I don't want to tell you how to suck eggs but the spacers on antiroll bar go inbetween the channel on the tie bar thus bringing the end of the tie bar down, somebody else might be able to post a picture,

Hi Ron

Thanks for the heads up, I was working blind as neither my triumph work shop manual or Hynes manual showed me. You will be glad to know its now fitted correctly and working great.

Thanks again.

Regards

Barry

[bazyerma]

Hi All

After a 60 mile test drive I can say the Roll bars have improved handling no end. Before the car wallowed / rolled a lot but always seems to have lots of grip in the wet and dry, I felt the car would roll over before starting to slid!

I was always happy with the cars handling and only added the Roll bars as part of my never ending list of things to do before the body work! All in I have spent about £250 and I think its been a great investment into the handling an a fun couple of afternoons work. (To be honest I felt it would not really change anything by much, but I was wrong )

Now it feels a lot better turn in, stiffer but just as comfortable and has oodles of grip even on my almost standard ride height. I no longer feel the need to lower it to get it to handle better.
I am super chuffed with it and wish I did it sooner.

As to Nigel's long rambling posts, no sure what he is on about, but I all I can say is it feels far better to me (but that can be highly subjective)

Regards

Barry

[Carledo]

Hi All

After a 60 mile test drive I can say the Roll bars have improved handling no end. Before the car wallowed / rolled a lot but always seems to have lots of grip in the wet and dry, I felt the car would roll over before starting to slid!

I was always happy with the cars handling and only added the Roll bars as part of my never ending list of things to do before the body work! All in I have spent about £250 and I think its been a great investment into the handling an a fun couple of afternoons work. (To be honest I felt it would not really change anything by much, but I was wrong )

Now it feels a lot better turn in, stiffer but just as comfortable and has oodles of grip even on my almost standard ride height. I no longer feel the need to lower it to get it to handle better.
I am super chuffed with it and wish I did it sooner.

As to Nigel's long rambling posts, no sure what he is on about, but I all I can say is it feels far better to me (but that can be highly subjective)

Regards

Barry

Glad you like it, though IMO, you could hardly NOT like it!

I think Nigels comment, simply put, restates what I said in more words. Modified to the hilt, as my car is, it's not a good guide to what to do on a more standard car. I know this, I said so! There's barely a parameter that I haven't altered. Somehow or another it's all come together as something that works. The mistakes must have cancelled each other out! Born lucky I guess!

Steve

[bazyerma]

Hi All

After a 60 mile test drive I can say the Roll bars have improved handling no end. Before the car wallowed / rolled a lot but always seems to have lots of grip in the wet and dry, I felt the car would roll over before starting to slid!

I was always happy with the cars handling and only added the Roll bars as part of my never ending list of things to do before the body work! All in I have spent about £250 and I think its been a great investment into the handling an a fun couple of afternoons work. (To be honest I felt it would not really change anything by much, but I was wrong )

Now it feels a lot better turn in, stiffer but just as comfortable and has oodles of grip even on my almost standard ride height. I no longer feel the need to lower it to get it to handle better.
I am super chuffed with it and wish I did it sooner.

As to Nigel's long rambling posts, no sure what he is on about, but I all I can say is it feels far better to me (but that can be highly subjective)

Regards

Barry

Glad you like it, though IMO, you could hardly NOT like it!

I think Nigels comment, simply put, restates what I said in more words. Modified to the hilt, as my car is, it's not a good guide to what to do on a more standard car. I know this, I said so! There's barely a parameter that I haven't altered. Somehow or another it's all come together as something that works. The mistakes must have cancelled each other out! Born lucky I guess!

Steve

Hi Steve

I like it, a lot. I just think some people over think things and end up doing nothing, I am more a do'r than a thinker

Although I cant imagine bigger brakes, new suspension, stiffer bush's and fitting anti roll bars can be anything other than a good thing (to everything but comfort, but with my full adjustable suspension set soft with long travel it is still comfortable enough my wife will come in the car with me, unlike my BMW).

One the suspension front, I would say the biggest improvement I have fitted would be the anti roll bars. I cannot see any disadvantage to fitting them to any other Dolomite / 1300/ 1500 car, standard or otherwise.

Regards

Barry

[naskeet]

Hi All

After a 60 mile test drive I can say the Roll bars have improved handling no end. Before the car wallowed / rolled a lot but always seems to have lots of grip in the wet and dry, I felt the car would roll over before starting to slid!

I was always happy with the cars handling and only added the Roll bars as part of my never ending list of things to do before the body work! All in I have spent about £250 and I think its been a great investment into the handling an a fun couple of afternoons work. (To be honest I felt it would not really change anything by much, but I was wrong )

Now it feels a lot better turn in, stiffer but just as comfortable and has oodles of grip even on my almost standard ride height. I no longer feel the need to lower it to get it to handle better.
I am super chuffed with it and wish I did it sooner.

As to Nigel's long rambling posts, no sure what he is on about, but I all I can say is it feels far better to me (but that can be highly subjective)

Regards

Barry

The fundamental message, is that making changes (even unrecognised ones!) to the factory-standard specifications can have unforeseen and sometimes dire consequences. This can happen all too easily, if one is ignorant of one's ignorance!

Those Minilite style wheels (with non-standard offset) and ultra-low profile tyres can potentially change steering-offset (i.e. scrub-radius) and/or your over-steer & under-steer characteristics!

[Carledo]

The fundamental message, is that making changes (even unrecognised ones!) to the factory-standard specifications can have unforeseen and sometimes dire consequences. This can happen all too easily, if one is ignorant of one's ignorance!

Those Minilite style wheels (with non-standard offset) and ultra-low profile tyres can potentially change steering-offset (i.e. scrub-radius) and/or your over-steer & under-steer characteristics!

Car makers presumably (hopefully) have methods for calculating the effect of changing parameters on their designs. Someone like yourself Nigel, presumably has enough knowledge to foresee the potential for negative improvements when modifying.

In your case, I would say that say that the old proverb of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing is almost right. I'm not trying to belittle you in any way, you have obviously devoted a large part of your life to the acquisition of knowledge. But you've learned so much that it has had a stultifying effect on your imagination. Being unhampered by this burden of knowledge, I just go out and experiment! If it works, all well and good, if it doesn't, I just try something else till it DOES work! With 50 years of experience in this sort of experimenting, i'm not often wrong enough that my mods have a detrimental effect. I don't NEED to know all the theory behind it, I just need to go on a road test. I can see a case for some modders being banned from ever lifting another spanner as long as they live, those who stretch 165 tyres over 7" rims and voluntarily introduce 10 degrees of camber into their suspension, spring all too readily to mind, but in my case, I reckon ignorance IS bliss.

2 things about the car in question. Firstly, other models in the same range have one or both of the antiroll bars fitted. So we know they work. Their deletion on some lower spec models is merely a production economy. Secondly, the alloy wheels Barry has fitted are not the Minilite or so called "fake minilite" made by John Brown Wheels, but my old friends the MGF 15"x6", just in a different pattern to my 5 spoke ones - unless i'm much mistaken.

Steve

[bazyerma]

Hi All

After a 60 mile test drive I can say the Roll bars have improved handling no end. Before the car wallowed / rolled a lot but always seems to have lots of grip in the wet and dry, I felt the car would roll over before starting to slid!

I was always happy with the cars handling and only added the Roll bars as part of my never ending list of things to do before the body work! All in I have spent about £250 and I think its been a great investment into the handling an a fun couple of afternoons work. (To be honest I felt it would not really change anything by much, but I was wrong )

Now it feels a lot better turn in, stiffer but just as comfortable and has oodles of grip even on my almost standard ride height. I no longer feel the need to lower it to get it to handle better.
I am super chuffed with it and wish I did it sooner.

As to Nigel's long rambling posts, no sure what he is on about, but I all I can say is it feels far better to me (but that can be highly subjective)

Regards

Barry

The fundamental message, is that making changes (even unrecognised ones!) to the factory-standard specifications can have unforeseen and sometimes dire consequences. This can happen all too easily, if one is ignorant of one's ignorance!

Those Minilite style wheels (with non-standard offset) and ultra-low profile tyres can potentially change steering-offset (i.e. scrub-radius) and/or your over-steer & under-steer characteristics!

Hi Nigel

The wheels fitted are as Steve Says MG 15"x6" fitted with 185/55 tyres. Would you class these as ultra-low profile, I kept these stock MG profile as I didnt want it to firm?

So far, my guesstimating and common sense approach seem to have only had positive consequences to the handling.

Regards

Barry

[Ron1966]

Glad you sorted it out. I ran a TC for a number of years and when I fitted the front antiroll bar it was transformed also. Yours has a nice stance , it would be a shame to lower it as I personally do not think it is a good look. I understand now you are looking for more power. I will be watching All the best.

[naskeet]

Hello Barry.

For a Triumph Toledo or Dolomite, I would personally regard 55-Series tyres as ultra-low-profile; especially considering that their suspensions were designed to function with 80-Series or 70-Series tyres; unlike the MGF or MGTF.

The vertical stiffness of the tyres, combines in series with the vertical stiffness of the helical coil springs, so if the tyre stiffness is increased, the overall stiffness of the suspension is increased, resulting in a harsher ride on uneven surfaces and possible skittishness on bumpy bends; particularly in relation to the rear suspension, which has a high un-sprung weight, owing to the heavy live axle. Hence, I would be wary of fitting such low-profile tyres (which might prove to be an expensive experiment), unless I could first assess the effect, by driving or travelling on such roads, in an existing car which had already been modified in this way.

Steve LaFerre, "Bottoming Out: With Aspect Ratios, How Low is Really Too Low?”, Tire Review, 22nd May 2008.

http://www.tirereview.com/bottoming-out ... y-too-low/

Unless one can obtain 55-Series tyres in a suitably LOW speed rating (even the S, T & H speed-ratings of 113, 118 & 130 mph are grossly over-rated for a Triumph 1500TC; especially as the national maximum speed limit is 70 mph), the additional internal reinforcement associated with a high-speed, high-performance tyre, will increase rolling resistance and consequently fuel-consumption rate as well; which would conflict with my philosophy of life.

Colin Chapman, the brains behind Lotus racing cars and sports cars, worked on the principle that good handling in a road-going sports car, was best achieved by using soft springs, firm damping and appropriate choice of anti-roll bar stiffness. The original 1960s vintage Lotus Elan, with its narrow, high-profile tires, is arguably one of the best-handling sports cars made; which in many ways was the inspiration for the Mazda MX5.

I had suspected that your wheel & tyre combination, might be MGF or MGTF, 6 x 15 inch “Minilite style” 8-spoke alloy wheels & 185/55 R15 tyres. How much clearance do you have between the tyres and the wheel arches, when the car is loaded to full capacity with four hefty adults and/or luggage? Any tendency for the tyres to rub against any part of the bodywork or suspension, when the rear axle is hard against the bump-stop, would probably constitute an MOT failure for safety reasons. Even though these 40+ year old cars are exempt from MOT testing, they must at all times, when used or parked on the public highway, be capable of passing an MOT inspection!

In the following topic thread, “Cliftyhanger” wrote:

I have the 15" MGF alloys with 185/55/15 tyres, and I had to trim the rear arches back to nothing.

Board index » The Triumph Dolomite Club » Dolomite-related [Start here!] » MG-Rover-Austin Maestro or Montego alloy wheels for Triumph Toledo & Dolomite

https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... =4&t=34572

https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... 72#p319956

From what I have read on the subject of wheels and tyres, one of the tyre-industry’s “rules of thumb”, indicates that fitting the same individual tyre to a 6 inch wide wheel rim, will increase the tyre’s actual section-width by approximately 1/5-inch (i.e. 5•08 mm) compared to what it would be on a 5½-inch wide wheel rim, so would bring a tyre’s sidewall about 2½ mm closer to the adjacent surfaces of the wheel arches.

Although I have yet to receive confirmation from any sources, I suspect that the MGF & MGTF, 6 x 15 inch alloy wheels are all of 28 mm offset; which is something I hope various parties will confirm or refute, either by reference to what is printed on the wheels or by actual measurements & calculation, which is quite easy to do.

Having a wheel of 5½ inch rim-width with a 31 mm offset, would by the tyre-industry’s “rule of thumb”, give about 5½ mm more outboard clearance between the tyre sidewall and the rear wheel arch, than would a wheel of 6 inch rim-width with a 28 mm offset.

Two of my seven second-hand MG 2•0 Maestro, 5½ x 15 inch, lattice-style alloy wheels (31 mm offset) came already fitted with 185/55 R15 tyres (V speed rating of more than 130 mph – ridiculous!), which I have trial-fitted on my 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 “HL Special”, resulting in more than adequate inboard & outboard clearance, between the tyre sidewalls and the rear wheel arches!

For reason of overall effective engine-gearing, reduced rolling-resistance (by virtue of both optimum aspect-ratio and lower speed rating – typically a T rating of 118 mph, which is still grossly over rated), improved ride comfort and more progressive loss of grip approaching the limit, I feel inclined to use 185/65 R15 tyres, which are readily available at competitive prices; including the impressive looking, Finnish made, Nokian all-weather tyre, that is also “snowflake-rated” for low-temperature winter use.

Jim Kerr, "Auto Tech: The science of tire-testing", Canadian Driver, 10th September 2003

https://www.canadiandriver.com/2003/09/ ... esting.htm

Julian Edgar, Ultimate DIY Automotive Modification Tool-Kit, Part 6, “Getting a handle on ride and handling”, DIY Tech Features Section, Autospeed.com, Issue 529, 5th May 2009.

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_111151/a ... larArticle

To date, I have still yet to obtain definitive information about the wheel-offsets of the factory-standard steel wheels for the Triumph Toledo 1300 & 1500 [4 x 13 inch], Triumph 1500TC [size unknown] or Triumph Dolomite 1300, 1500, 1500HL, 1850 & 1850HL [4½ x 13 inch]. I suspect they are probably close to that of the 5½ x 13 inch Triumph Dolomite Sprint alloy wheels (35 mm offset), but that is purely conjecture on my part.

Since before my father bought our ex-demonstrator cum dealership runabout, 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300, in May 1975, it has NOT been equipped with the factory-standard 4 x 13 inch steel wheels [of as yet unkown offset] & 155 SR13 radial-ply tyres.

To date, I have run the car with 5½ x 13 inch alloy wheels of two different wheel offsets (i.e. 21 mm & 35 mm) and two different tyre sizes (i.e. 185/70 R13 & 175 SR13 = circa 175/80 R13 ~ 175/83 R13) in three combinations. You might want to read the following posts to discover what disconcerting and potentially dangerous steering characteristics I encountered with one of these combinations!

Board index » The Triumph Dolomite Club » Restoration Projects » Triumph Toledo - Wellington New Zealand

https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... 64#p322664

https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... 78#p338378

https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... 79#p338579

Alistair Cox in New Zealand has yet to report back on his experiences with new 5 x 13 inch “Minilite style” alloy wheels (20 mm offset) & 175/70 R13 tyres fitted to his Triumph Toledo 1500. I very much hope he doesn’t encounter the same weird steering characteristics that I did, with 5½ x 13 inch Cosmic alloy wheels (21 mm offset) & 185/70 R13 tyres, when negotiating tight bends under power! With 6 x 15 inch MGF alloy wheels (28 mm offset?) & 185/55 R15 tyres, I probably would not expect the outcome to be quite so extreme, but please be wary!

185/65 R15 – 1952•4 mm circumference

175 R13 => 175/83 R13 – 1949•9 mm circumference (5•65% larger than 155/83 R13)

175 R13 => 175/82 R13 – 1939•0 mm circumference (5•62% larger than 155/82 R13)

175 R13 => 175/80 R13 – 1917•0 mm circumference (5•54% larger than 155/80 R13)

185/70 R13 – 1851•0 mm circumference

155 R13 => 155/83 R13 – 1845•6 mm circumference

185/55 R15 – 1836•2 mm circumference

155 R13 => 155/82 R13 – 1835•9 mm circumference

155 R13 => 155/80 R13 – 1816•4 mm circumference

175/70 R13 – 1807•0 mm circumference

[Carledo]

I'm running 195/50/15 Toyo Proxes T1R on the Carledo and did indeed have to roll the rear arch lips down to nothing for clearance. I also had to return the rear springs to standard 40 year old Toledo springs to offset the skittish cornering Nigel describes as a side effect of low profile tyres. Whilst i'm well aware of this, I don't think it's a defining single cause. I'd initially used the much stiffer Sprint rear springs and that, combined with the stiffer low profile sidewalls AND the overall very low weight of the 2 door's rear end, ganged up to provide a ride that was less than comfortable OR safe, with the car skittering round even smooth corners like a marble across paving slabs. This setup was changed after just one short (less than 3 mile) road test! In any event, I only had to add the ASP Gaz shocks and return the springs to standard Toledo items to entirely correct it's behaviour.

I'm a big fan of Colin Chapman and his theories on fast car design, i'm pleased to know that I unwittingly followed his advice, at least as far as stiff shox and soft springs are concerned.

I'm not so concerned about fitting fatter low profile tyres, the Lotus Nigel mentioned and indeed C.C. himself largely predate fat tyres for road cars, he didn't have that option.

But I AM well aware of the effects of "over-tyring" a car from experiments I conducted over 20 years ago on a souped up 1300cc Vauxhall Nova (note, another extremely light car) and a set of MkII Cavalier SRi 6.5x15 alloys with 195/60s. These also didn't survive the first road test, rampant torque steer and bump steer were the symptoms. The larger diameter wheel/tyre combo also adversely affected the gearing but that was a minor problem by comparison. I put the problem down to having to having too big a tyre footprint for the weight of the car, this reducing grip (via "weight available for traction" to use a steam loco term) and making it misbehave. A few weeks later, a mate who had similarly equipped his Nova GTE (against my advice) rolled it on a corner near our village and was lucky to escape with only minor injuries. I eventually settled on a set of 5x13 alloys with 165/70 tyres that I salvaged from a scrap Fiat 127, which suited the car nicely.

Steve

[naskeet]

Hi Steve

I like it, a lot. I just think some people over think things and end up doing nothing, I am more a do'r than a thinker

Although I cant imagine bigger brakes, new suspension, stiffer bush's and fitting anti roll bars can be anything other than a good thing (to everything but comfort, but with my full adjustable suspension set soft with long travel it is still comfortable enough my wife will come in the car with me, unlike my BMW).

One the suspension front, I would say the biggest improvement I have fitted would be the anti roll bars. I cannot see any disadvantage to fitting them to any other Dolomite / 1300/ 1500 car, standard or otherwise.

Regards

Barry

It's better to think before one acts! It avoids a lot of aggravation, pain, injury or death!

I retro-fitted both front & rear anti-roll bars in 1982 to my 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300, which already had dealership-fitted 5.5 x 13 inch Cosmic alloy wheels (21 mm offset!?! ) & Uniroyal Rallye 180, 175 SR13 (i.e. circa 175/80 R13 ~ 175/83 R13) steel-braced radial ply tyres, so I've had the benefit of improved handling for many years. They only cost be £5 each!