1300 clutch pedal right to floor

[Ralph]

Hi, new to Dolomite ownership so forgive me if this has been covered before. To engage a gear I have to press the clutch pedal right to the carpet. I have fitted new seals in both the master and slave cylinder and bled the clutch (difficult to get to} untill I am sure there is no air in the system. Still have to press the pedal through the carpet. The car has only done 15000 from new (1979), so I am pretty sure that the master and slave are original, but the master cyl is a tiny 5/8" bore and the slave cyl is 7/8" bore. Is this correct? as it seems this ratio will require a lot of movement of the pedal for not much movement at the clutch. I am wondering whether to fit a larger master cylinder to shove more fluid through, although I appreciate this will increase pedal pressure.
Thanks in advance for any replies.
Ralph

[JerryTR5]

I don't know much about Dolomites but I assume it is the same engine and box as a Spitfire.
Your bore sizes sound about right to me.
Make sure the slave cylinder is orientated so that the bleed nipple is at the top. This makes a big difference as to how much air you get out.
Loosen the slave cylinder clamp bolt and push the cylinder as far in as it will go then tighten.
It is known for the clutch operating arm pivot pin to wear excessively. I have seen a case where the pin actually fell out. Unfortunately this is a gearbox out job to rectify.
Check the pedal linkage for wear. Particularly prone is the clevis pin at the junction of pedal arm and master cylinder pushrod.
Given that you say it is very low mileage, my last suggestion is very unlikely. With higher mileages the crankshaft thrust washers wear and can fall out which means that depressing the clutch moves the crankshaft forward. Easy to check. Use a stout screwdriver and lever the crank pulley backwards. Do not lever on anything flimsy like the radiator.
Get your lovely assistant to depress the clutch while you watch the front pulley. If it moves forward, then the clutch is unlikely to be able to release. Sometimes you can hear it go 'clunk'.
Is it a problem in all the gears or just some? Reverse is usually the most difficult with clutch problems.
Was this a problem before you changed the seals, or since?
If it's a FWD, then most of the above is probably meaningless.
Jerry

[Ralph]

Hi Jerry, thanks for your reply. The problem existed when I picked up the car, which had only covered 200 miles since the last MOT in 2019, so it had hardly had any use. The car spent the first 33 years of its life on Jersey only covering 13,000 miles, and I think the lady owner probably only used it once a week for shopping, so the clutch probably had a lot of use in relation to the mileage, so there may be a bit of wear in the various linkages, but it doesn`t feel excessive.
I first tried bleeding, but no air coming out, so decided to overhaul the cylinders. On the Dolly the orientation of the slave cylinder cannot be changed, as the clamp bolt passes through a groove in the side of the cylinder, so the nipple is at the top. I bought an expensive (£14) auto bleed nipple which has its own internal valve, so all you do is open it 1/4 turn and the valve prevents air going back in when the pedal is released. To the nipple I connected a meter of clear bleeding tube and ran this up into a Jar perched on top of the brake servo so I could see the fluid and whether there was any air still coming out. I put half a litre of new fluid through until there was no sign of any air and then locked the bleed nipple. The pedal does not feel spongy, and only has about half an inch of slack movement before it comes up against resistance from the clutch. In all respects it feels like a good clutch pedal.
I have seen on ebay a number of sellers offering what they call an "upgrade" using a 3/4 dia master cylinder and an adapter for the pipe, and I have no doubt that the extra fluid shifted by the bigger master will give me a better (though heavier) pedal, and in desperation I have ordered one. You see these for around £40 to £50 quid, but it is simply a master cylinder from a series3 land-rover which also uses the same pipe adapter (3/8 to 7/16 UNF) and I was able to get both from a land-rover specialist for £22 if anyone else wants to try the conversion.
I will report back next week after it has been fitted.
Ralph

[JerryTR5]

It's not just a stuck clutch is it? I was assuming that you can actually select a gear and drive it but re-reading you haven't actually stated that.
With the engine running can you select a gear?
Stuck clutches are common on rarely used cars.
Jerry

[Ralph]

It's not just a stuck clutch is it? I was assuming that you can actually select a gear and drive it but re-reading you haven't actually stated that.
With the engine running can you select a gear?
Stuck clutches are common on rarely used cars.
Jerry

Yes it drives and I can get reverse from a standstill but you have to be pushing the pedal through the carpet, and you get full drive about an inch from the floor.
I have a vitesse, and on that the pedal only needs to be about halfway down to release the clutch, and my TR3 a bit more, say 3/4 of the way down. Both hydraulic clutches. For all the world it seems like it just isn`t getting enough travel at the clutch lever which you would get with air in the system, but for the life of me I cannot get any more air out. My next step might be to slip the slave cylinder out and clamp the piston fully back in the bore to eliminate as much space as possible and then try bleeding again.
My initial enquiry was because of reading of the "upgrade" 3/4 master cyl made me wonder if this low pedal situation was common, and also I was not sure if the 5/8 master was correct, but it seems it is.

Thanks for your interest and suggestions
Ralph

[xvivalve]

How long is the push rod from pedal pivot to cylinder end?

There are various lengths fitted to various different makes/models and sometimes they can get 'mixed up'. From centre of pedal pivot hole to the end of the 'bulb' that operates the master cylinder should be
2 5/8"

Another problem occurs when the pedal pivot hole in the push rod elongates

[Ralph]

OK, so I managed to get out in the car yesterday for the first time, did a total of 60 miles . Pedal needs to be pressed right to the floor as stated previously to get a gear without crunching, which I have now mastered, and as soon as you start to ease off the pedal the clutch bites, but I have found that the pedal needs to be fully up to the top before the clutch is completely engaged, and just resting ones foot on the clutch pedal is enough to make it slip. The fact that the slightest press of the pedal causes the clutch to slip would suggest that there is no air in the system and hardly any free play. There is no hint of the clutch slipping during normal driving, even when dropping to third and giving it the beans up hill. Of course there is nothing to say that even with such a low mileage the clutch is neccessarily good, it could be worn out, but I would expect it to slip if that were the case.
I have been looking at the prices of clutches and am amazed by the fact that the one for the 1300 is £240 or so (from Rimmers) with a surcharge on the driven plate as they must re line them, yet one for a 1500 is half that amount with no surcharge. It seems to be that the gearbox in my car has a 20 tooth spline on the input shaft whereas earlier cars were 24 spline. Also the only exhaust I can find is again from Rimmers, albeit stainless steel, but at a massive £500 odd quid. The poor old Dolly seems to have been left behind a bit where spare parts are concerned.

One last thing, I have been looking at the situation as regards removing the gearbox, can anyone tell me, will it come out inside the car, or is it easier to take of the bonnet and remove the engine and gearbox complete.

Every day is a schoolday,
thanks,
Ralph

[xvivalve]

Possibly the springs in the cover plate may have worn or weakened to give those symptoms, or some wear in the operating system beyond the hydraulics maybe. Internal inspection seems inevitable, unfortunately. The 1300 gearbox will come out from within the car (parcel shelf and transmission tunnel out first) or from under easier than some of the bigger engined cars, but if you have the facilities lifting engine and 'box together may be easier if only aligning the 'box to engine on reassembly is easier than trying to do so at arms length.

Club spares sell stainless exhausts for the 1300, currently quoted price being £389 inc VAT and UK delivery.

The clutch cover is the same as for a 1300 Spitfire, part number GCC197 as id the release bearing which is also the same as TR7 (GRB207) which might expand your supply options a little. All components are available separately via Abingdon Parts for Triumph in Oldbury at slightly lower prices than Rimmers, but they are all available to order only as they don't currently have stock. Using the Club trade account I can do slightly better on the prices advertised on their website, but have no idea how long it would take before they have stock; a 'phone call might inform you of this.

I recommend you call T D Fitchetts in Telford to see what they can supply; CALL, do NOT rely on their website.

[Richard the old one]

I assume that the 1300 set up is very similar to the 1500 set up and I suggest you remove the slave cylinder from its adaptor hold it up in the engine bay with the bleed nipple at the highest point to ensure you get all the air out of the system. If you bleed the system with it in its adaptor the slave cylinder is horizontal and I believe some air stays in the cylinder. Alternatively you can pump hydraulic fluid into the system via the bleed nipple and this will force any air out via the master cylinder. I also believe that if you leave the pedal pressed down over night this get the air out.

I helped a fellow owner who had spent a lot of money taking his 1500 to two garages who failed to bleed his system before he contacted me.

[Carledo]

If the clutch is taking it's full travel (maybe plus a bit) to go from fully disengaged to fully engaged, this a classic symptom of pressure plate diaphragm distortion or failure. The only cure is to pull the gearbox and replace the clutch.

I've noticed that clutch prices have recently gone through the roof, i'm forced to assume the prime source of lining materials is in Russia or something, as the oddest things seem to have become expensive/unobtainable lately.

Yes talk to Fitchetts, but, as Alun says, use the phone! They are very old school and not quite comfortable with the internet!

As to taking the gearbox out, the 1300 is the prime candidate for removal from inside the car, take out the parcel tray and the tunnel housing and it's all there in front of you. I routinely do these solo, even though i'm now approaching 70, but an assistant to help the gearbox refitting and alignment can save your neighbours from hearing a lot of bad language! If I pull my finger out (not often) I can do the whole job in 5 hours without hurrying TOO much, now i'm getting older, I allow a weekend and REALLY take my time. As usual with clutches the real art lies in correctly aligning the centre plate. Do this right and the box will fall in, get it wrong and you'll struggle.

One final word, when refitting the gearbox, DO NOT under any circumstances use the bolts to pull the box in the last few MM, let alone an inch or so. The engine backplate is very thin and easily distorted by this "old hand's trick". Bending the backplate will ensure future problems, probably including (but not limited to) the driven plate exploding within 500 miles!

Steve

[TrustNo1]

I assume that the 1300 set up is very similar to the 1500 set up and I suggest you remove the slave cylinder from its adaptor hold it up in the engine bay with the bleed nipple at the highest point to ensure you get all the air out of the system. If you bleed the system with it in its adaptor the slave cylinder is horizontal and I believe some air stays in the cylinder. Alternatively you can pump hydraulic fluid into the system via the bleed nipple and this will force any air out via the master cylinder. I also believe that if you leave the pedal pressed down over night this get the air out.

I helped a fellow owner who had spent a lot of money taking his 1500 to two garages who failed to bleed his system before he contacted me.

Many years ago this method was reffered to as the 'marty method' and is the only way to guaentee a fully bled system, I oo have had any 1300/1500s that has solved the issue

[Carledo]

Alternately, just bleed the clutch with the back of the car jacked up (and safely on axle stands) higher than the front, the 21" lift of a standard cheapo trolley jack will be enough to introduce a sufficient angle in the normally horizontal slave cylinder that you get that last couple of CCs of air out.

This is how I bleed Sprint clutches too, though the rear height need to be that much higher as the Sprint slave sits at a downward angle to start with, making successful bleeding even harder.

Steve

[TrustNo1]

Alternately, just bleed the clutch with the back of the car jacked up (and safely on axle stands) higher than the front, the 21" lift of a standard cheapo trolley jack will be enough to introduce a sufficient angle in the normally horizontal slave cylinder that you get that last couple of CCs of air out.

This is how I bleed Sprint clutches too, though the rear height need to be that much higher as the Sprint slave sits at a downward angle to start with, making successful bleeding even harder.

Steve

on the 1300/1500s you need to get the slave higher than the master. as the air gets trapped in the pipe due to the way its routed

[Ralph]

I fitted the 3/4 inch master cylinder in the end. It has made the pedal heavier as I expected, but now the clutch is released before the pedal hits the carpet, and fully engaged 3/4 of the way up. Feels much more "normal" and less tendency to slip the clutch excessively. I didn`t even need to bleed the clutch again, I undid the pipe from the master cylinder and quickly lifted it up high so no fluid was lost, then when the new bigger cylinder was in place with the adapter fitted I carefully filled the reservoir with fluid until it was just starting to come out of the adapter, then quickly screwed the pipe in and tightened it. I had a good pedal straight away.
I still intend to take the gearbox out and investigate the clutch later on, and am on the lookout for a 1500 flywheel so I can use the cheaper and stronger clutch assembly.
What is the situation regarding the Borg & Beck clutches now?. Several years ago when they had just come back on the market under the new ownership I fitted one to my Austin A35 and it was dire, horrible clutch judder, and at the time Bull Motif would not sell them. After only 200 miles I replaced mine with an AP clutch from Bull Motif and it was lighter and judder free, and is still in the van.
Ralph

[xvivalve]

Borg & Beck is nothing but print on the box these days, along with various other brands historically synonymous with quality, but now all under single ownership...which I thought was AP but may be wrong.

As new old stock dries up, our options have become very limited.