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 Post subject: Toledo 1300 upgrade
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2023 7:12 am 
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Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!

Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:06 am
Posts: 95
Location: Taranaki, New Zealand
I have owned "Betty" the Toledo for just over 12 months now, and am getting used to the joys of ownership of a 50 year old classic British car.

My father was a British/Euro car fanatic, and after learning to drive in a Morris Minor aged 8, then moving on to a Morris 1300 as my first car at age 15, owning a Toledo feels like a homecoming of sorts.

After recently going back and forth about aspiring to a Triumph 2500 or even Rover P6, I have now decided to keep the Toledo and upgrade her to make a bit more of a fun weekend driver.

To date, apart from basic maintenance and WOF (MOT) repairs, I have fitted a rear Anti Roll Bar, with a front to go on very shortly now I have end links that will fit.

Being a 1972 model, currently she has front drum brakes. My stage 1 plan is to replace these with standard Toledo disks and booster in the near future.

I also have on order a set of Gaz ASP shocks, which in combination with stock Toledo front springs I hope will bring the nose down a bit without making the ride quality too harsh.

At the same time as the disc brakes and shocks, I would like to fit a set of rear seatbelts.

My stage 2 plan is to source a small crank 1296 unit from a Herald, warm it up, and drop in place of the current stock engine.

Without deciding on the specifics of the spec, the general idea is:

- Increase the CR to Spit spec or higher
- Spit spec cam (with or without cam bearings to be decided).
- Head porting
- Single carb (HS6 or Weber to be decided) with an appropriate intake manifold (Herald banana manifold over standard Toledo log?)
- 4 into 1 exhaust manifold with appropriate back end system
- Electronic dizzy

I realise some will ask why not start with a 1500 engine? I am aware that would yield more low end torque and possibly make for a better fast road engine, but for some reason I'm attracted to keeping it as a 1300 that will rev.

Full disclosure - my mechanical abilities are limited, but I'm hoping to achieve the above with the help of mechanical friends and specialist outside help where required, while learning a lot as the project progresses.

Feedback is welcome, even if you want to tell me I'm crazy, or should sell it and buy a Sprint or Spitfire (rare(ish) on the ground in NZ and beyond my budget).

I plan to keep the Toledo for the long term and enjoy it, and on that basis am happy to undertake the above.

_________________
1972 Toledo 4 door "Betty"


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 Post subject: Re: Toledo 1300 upgrade
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2023 8:08 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:31 pm
Posts: 156
Location: Oxfordshire
My partner's Clio is called Betty too!

might be worth a read of this thread: https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... hp?t=18872

In a nutshell 1300s are actually higher revving (and quicker revving) than 1500s, presumably due to the shorter stroke(?) and can be peppier with tuning. I think our cars may well have been de-tuned so that the 1500 models actually sold, as they could have easily matched the power. A lot of people use the twin carbs from a spitfire, but sounds like you'd rather just use a single, larger one?

In my experience a front anti-roll bar made a MASSIVE difference to handling on my Toledo. Rear ones not so much.

Might also be worth considering the trackerjack conversion if you're upping the power, as well as a dual circuit brake system like that of a dolly HL/sprint

_________________
1973 2-door honeysuckle Triumph Toledo 1300 Thread here


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 Post subject: Re: Toledo 1300 upgrade
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2023 11:26 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:35 pm
Posts: 965
Location: Filey, North Yorkshire
The key as you point out is to base the engine on an early "small crank journal" 1300, not the later one. You don't have to justify the choice of engine! It's your car!
Just be realistic about what it'll be like to drive, a fast road spec 1500 on twin carbs will make around 105/110 lb.ft of torque from about 2200 RPM all the way up to 5K+ but won't rev much higher than 5k regularly without destroying the crank/bottom end. Peak power on the 1500 will be 90/95BHP at around 5k. A small journal 1300 otoh will be a REV MONSTER, 7k+ totally possible with BHP to suit, but will never make the torque of a 1500 but will most likely make higher peak BHP at the top end.

As such a 1500 will be a nice relaxed cruiser, but a 1300 will be a fast high BHP engine but needing more gear changes to make the torque/bhp work.

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 Post subject: Re: Toledo 1300 upgrade
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2023 8:26 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:26 am
Posts: 2496
I have a bit of experience with this stuff, just like Sam.
I ran a 1500 in my toledo, with a TH5 cam, 10:1 head and the larger valves, twin HS4s and teh 1500 twin cast manifold/downpipe it made 91bhp. However, I managed to destroy several cranks, less so after fitting an oil cooler and using millers CSS oil, but still one went and then I changed to a TR7 engine. Similar power, more torque, less stressed, more economical.
I also have experiebnce of 1300 engines.
They do rev better/easier, and even the big jornal ones last way better than a 1500. The small bearing crank is a gem.

I would go for a mk3 spitfire cam, 9.75 CR and definately use the Toledo log manifold with a single HS6/HIF44 carb.
A 4 branch exhaust manifiold is "difficult" and teh simple answer will be use the 1500 cast manifold/downpipe (but use 3/8 or M10 cap heads as they can be done up good and tight, much better than the weedy 5/16 studs)

The car will never be proper quick with the OHV engine, but could be much perkier with a few well chosen mods that won't cost a fortune or make the car difficult to drive.
(I had a mk3 spit with a 110+bhp 1300, twin dellortos, fast road 83 cam, roller rockers etc etc, but the buyers wanted std. I fitted a rebuilt std herald GE engine, a pair of std mk3 carbs etc, and the car was much nicer to drive 90% of the time)

_________________
Clive Senior
Brighton


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 Post subject: Re: Toledo 1300 upgrade
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2023 9:19 pm 
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Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!

Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:06 am
Posts: 95
Location: Taranaki, New Zealand
Quote:
I have a bit of experience with this stuff, just like Sam.
I ran a 1500 in my toledo, with a TH5 cam, 10:1 head and the larger valves, twin HS4s and teh 1500 twin cast manifold/downpipe it made 91bhp. However, I managed to destroy several cranks, less so after fitting an oil cooler and using millers CSS oil, but still one went and then I changed to a TR7 engine. Similar power, more torque, less stressed, more economical.
I also have experiebnce of 1300 engines.
They do rev better/easier, and even the big jornal ones last way better than a 1500. The small bearing crank is a gem.

I would go for a mk3 spitfire cam, 9.75 CR and definately use the Toledo log manifold with a single HS6/HIF44 carb.
A 4 branch exhaust manifiold is "difficult" and teh simple answer will be use the 1500 cast manifold/downpipe (but use 3/8 or M10 cap heads as they can be done up good and tight, much better than the weedy 5/16 studs)

The car will never be proper quick with the OHV engine, but could be much perkier with a few well chosen mods that won't cost a fortune or make the car difficult to drive.
(I had a mk3 spit with a 110+bhp 1300, twin dellortos, fast road 83 cam, roller rockers etc etc, but the buyers wanted std. I fitted a rebuilt std herald GE engine, a pair of std mk3 carbs etc, and the car was much nicer to drive 90% of the time)
I initially liked the idea of the 1500 cast manifold, but got put off by reading forum stories of it constantly blowing gaskets. However I saw a note about "sleeving" the joint to the downpipe, does this rectify the issue.

Would I also need the corresponding downpipe or could I get an adaptor made to the current exhaust (and would I need to increase the diameter of the rest of the exhaust system?).

_________________
1972 Toledo 4 door "Betty"


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 Post subject: Re: Toledo 1300 upgrade
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2023 8:52 am 
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TDC Member

Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:26 am
Posts: 2496
Quote:
Quote:
I have a bit of experience with this stuff, just like Sam.
I ran a 1500 in my toledo, with a TH5 cam, 10:1 head and the larger valves, twin HS4s and teh 1500 twin cast manifold/downpipe it made 91bhp. However, I managed to destroy several cranks, less so after fitting an oil cooler and using millers CSS oil, but still one went and then I changed to a TR7 engine. Similar power, more torque, less stressed, more economical.
I also have experiebnce of 1300 engines.
They do rev better/easier, and even the big jornal ones last way better than a 1500. The small bearing crank is a gem.

I would go for a mk3 spitfire cam, 9.75 CR and definately use the Toledo log manifold with a single HS6/HIF44 carb.
A 4 branch exhaust manifiold is "difficult" and teh simple answer will be use the 1500 cast manifold/downpipe (but use 3/8 or M10 cap heads as they can be done up good and tight, much better than the weedy 5/16 studs)

The car will never be proper quick with the OHV engine, but could be much perkier with a few well chosen mods that won't cost a fortune or make the car difficult to drive.
(I had a mk3 spit with a 110+bhp 1300, twin dellortos, fast road 83 cam, roller rockers etc etc, but the buyers wanted std. I fitted a rebuilt std herald GE engine, a pair of std mk3 carbs etc, and the car was much nicer to drive 90% of the time)
I initially liked the idea of the 1500 cast manifold, but got put off by reading forum stories of it constantly blowing gaskets. However I saw a note about "sleeving" the joint to the downpipe, does this rectify the issue.

Would I also need the corresponding downpipe or could I get an adaptor made to the current exhaust (and would I need to increase the diameter of the rest of the exhaust system?).
You would need the downpipe too, unless somebody can make a copy. The twin pipes are quite long.
I fixed the blowing issue by filing the manifold and downpip faces flat (they were VERY lumpy) and using m10 capheads. Never an issue again.

However, I have remembered an issue. The twin cast manifold will NOT fit with a single carb inlet . I tried, and failed (apologies, this was over a decade ago) I even tried hacking bits off the inlet, and grinding the exhaust manifold.

For ease, do the engine etc, and keep the existing exhaust system? You will see the vast majority of the gains. MK3 spit is 75bhp, toledo 60? That is a big jump.

_________________
Clive Senior
Brighton


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 Post subject: Re: Toledo 1300 upgrade
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2023 8:30 pm 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!

Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:06 am
Posts: 95
Location: Taranaki, New Zealand
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I have a bit of experience with this stuff, just like Sam.
I ran a 1500 in my toledo, with a TH5 cam, 10:1 head and the larger valves, twin HS4s and teh 1500 twin cast manifold/downpipe it made 91bhp. However, I managed to destroy several cranks, less so after fitting an oil cooler and using millers CSS oil, but still one went and then I changed to a TR7 engine. Similar power, more torque, less stressed, more economical.
I also have experiebnce of 1300 engines.
They do rev better/easier, and even the big jornal ones last way better than a 1500. The small bearing crank is a gem.

I would go for a mk3 spitfire cam, 9.75 CR and definately use the Toledo log manifold with a single HS6/HIF44 carb.
A 4 branch exhaust manifiold is "difficult" and teh simple answer will be use the 1500 cast manifold/downpipe (but use 3/8 or M10 cap heads as they can be done up good and tight, much better than the weedy 5/16 studs)

The car will never be proper quick with the OHV engine, but could be much perkier with a few well chosen mods that won't cost a fortune or make the car difficult to drive.
(I had a mk3 spit with a 110+bhp 1300, twin dellortos, fast road 83 cam, roller rockers etc etc, but the buyers wanted std. I fitted a rebuilt std herald GE engine, a pair of std mk3 carbs etc, and the car was much nicer to drive 90% of the time)
I initially liked the idea of the 1500 cast manifold, but got put off by reading forum stories of it constantly blowing gaskets. However I saw a note about "sleeving" the joint to the downpipe, does this rectify the issue.

Would I also need the corresponding downpipe or could I get an adaptor made to the current exhaust (and would I need to increase the diameter of the rest of the exhaust system?).
You would need the downpipe too, unless somebody can make a copy. The twin pipes are quite long.
I fixed the blowing issue by filing the manifold and downpip faces flat (they were VERY lumpy) and using m10 capheads. Never an issue again.

However, I have remembered an issue. The twin cast manifold will NOT fit with a single carb inlet . I tried, and failed (apologies, this was over a decade ago) I even tried hacking bits off the inlet, and grinding the exhaust manifold.

For ease, do the engine etc, and keep the existing exhaust system? You will see the vast majority of the gains. MK3 spit is 75bhp, toledo 60? That is a big jump.
No problem Clive. I would be happy to use the existing manifold as long as it doesn't strangle the gains from the engine work.

A custom 4-2-1 set of headers made locally will likely run to $1500nzd. The club set could be landed for less, but is on the borderline of $1000 which has customs implications here.
Then on top I would need a new back end to the exhaust.

Without costing out the total engine build, you can already see the above would account for a significant chunk.

_________________
1972 Toledo 4 door "Betty"


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