Strange camber?

[DOLOMITE 135]

Did you tighten the suspension up with the weight off, and before allowing the suspension to settle on both sides, as this can mean the suspension is tightened up in the wrong position.
Having seen the effect lowered springs have on the camber of a Dolomite, are the front springs the same, do they have the same free lenght and are your adjustable seats at the same height (obvious I know but it always worth looking at the simple things first).

Additionally didn't you need to repair the mounting on the chassis rail, how extensive were the repairs required?

[olr159w]

Hi. Thanks.

"Did you tighten the suspension up with the weight off, and before allowing the suspension to settle on both sides, as this can mean the suspension is tightened up in the wrong position."
A. I did tighten it up with the weight off but since the whole suspension assy is a moving mechanism I don't see how that can be an issue. Not saying you are wrong, just don't understand that. It's had plenty of time to settle since

"Having seen the effect lowered springs have on the camber of a Dolomite, are the front springs the same, do they have the same free lenght and are your adjustable seats at the same height (obvious I know but it always worth looking at the simple things first). "
A. Front springs both HD. No idea on free length. The adjusters have to be wound up differently to make the car sit level. This weirdness came to light years ago and I just try not to think about it. But its a long standing thing and this odd camber was not there before the recent work ie for years the adj seats were at different heights and the car was fine.

"Additionally didn't you need to repair the mounting on the chassis rail, how extensive were the repairs required"
A. There was some corrosion around the bolt holes on the top of the chassis rail inside the engine bay. It wasn't structurally concerning ie not huge holes, weak metal, distorted metal. It was cleaned up, rust treated and grossly reinforced with liquid metal. The only effect it could be having would be to raise where the washer inside the engine bay sits due to there being a little more material. The net of that would be to reduce the available thread length under the car.

Best, m

[DOLOMITE 135]

The manual states the inner wishbone bush should be fully tightened once the "jack has been removed", I also do the final tightening of the 3 bolts at the lower end of the shock absorber when on the ground after the car has been moved a few feet to allow the suspension to settle (what do others do?). As there is limited movement in a metalastic bush (as the metal insert is bonded to the rubber outer, it is the rubber deforming that provides the suspension movement in both directions whilst the insert is held fast by the bolt through it) I have always thought it better to gain a 'neutral' position for the bushes before they are clamped in place by the bolt rather than pre-load them once the car is lowered back on the ground. I note that you also have poly bushes which may also have less movement than a traditional bush once tightened.

This is not a new problem, but a long standing one?
If the car has been restored was it by someone with a detailed knowledge of Dolomites? I note your brake calipers are not in the standard position, could it be that some of the front suspension has been replaced with an incorrect part from another (similar) model? Additionally if the dampers were previously adjusted differentially to level the car, and if you have replaced a worn bush, the previous fix may now be the problem.


"grossly reinforced with liquid metal"

'liquid metal'? is this some form of filler?

[olr159w]

OK. Well I can certainly try that approach of tightening once the jack is removed instead.

I didn't do it before because I can't figure out how to access the bolts with the car on the ground. I still can't - any suggestions? I'm not sure how I could get to it let alone tighten anything.

The poly bushes have a separate steel tube through the middle of them rather than the metal insert being bonded to the rubber. I'm not sure if there is less movement but you can imagine that; also possibly the increased importance of tightening once all back on the ground for that reason maybe

I think I wasn't clear re the prospect of this being a long standing problem or not. The camber issue is a very recent problem, not a long standing one. Brief history - bought the car - drove the car - parked it in garage for ages pending work - had it restored by a fairly well known mob but with me doing as much of it as possible - exported to Oz - used a bit in the early days - again sits in garage more recently - year ago-ish realised there was oil leak from rear axle - further examinations revealed various split bushes at front - hence did work on sub frame mounts, front suspension, rear axles - waiting to see re axle leak - vibration issue arose - left for a long while but determined to use more - brings us to recent forum posts trying to address various issues having driven it the other day and heard vibration noise plus found front brakes binding

And in so doing looked at wheel alignment when it was on drive and decided wheels looked a tiny bit splayed.

Going back eons when the adj shocks were put on - can't remember but think it must have been by me some time after the resto - I found that one side needed to be more wound up than the other for the car to sit level. At the time I lowered it a bit. More recently I've had it sit a bit higher so that its OE height. But in terms of the adjusters it's been like that ever since they were fitted. That is the long term thing I was alluding to. Really peculiar - when it had bog standard so called HD shocks on the front I never had any impression that it didn't sit level.

Perhaps the springs are different lengths. It's almost the only explanation. I can check as they are partly coming off at some point anyway per comment about adjuster knob would be better in reverse position.

OK last two things.

"Brake calipers are not in the standard position". What? Please explain, the first I've heard of it. They just bolt on where they bolt on - how could there be an alternate position? Confused.....

Liquid metal is some form of filler - here's the actual product : http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Produc ... 9mL/114980

Unfortunate name for a car parts shop down here but the info is ok. Essentially it's very strong. The underside of the sub-frame mounts was all good apart from surface rust which got a clean up and treat. Inside the engine bay underneath the mounting bolt washers was not as attractive but not disastrous either. There was plenty of good material but also rust around the bolt hole. Nothing flexible in terms of remaining metal or bolt tube location. The entire area was filled in and around with the above product and sanded flat for the washer to sit nicely.

I wouldn't say I'm thrilled with what I found under that washer in the first place but I'm very confident that its extremely solid, at least for a while. It was a tedious and hard to reach repair but nowhere near extensive. At some point that area may need looking at I'd agree; but then that's probably true for all our cars....

[DOLOMITE 135]

Tightening the suspension on the ground is a pain, I think the manual assumes it would be done by a garage on a lift or maybe ramps.

Assuming there were no issues before restoration, there would appear to be three areas for further investigation, firstly that the replacement parts used are the correct ones, secondly that any replacement parts are dimensionally correct (do the parts on each side match, if any second hand parts were used, were they already accident damaged), and thirdly that the various sub-assemblies are correctly assembled, i.e. that things like the rubber insulation pads on the tops of the springs are fitted both sides.

The front vertical links that the stub axles mount to are not sided, see here for a picture:
http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-311449

This means that it is possible to mount the caliper to the front or back (or both) of the front vertical link, the factory position is towards the back of the car like on mine below, do you have the lower brake shield fitted as this may have a small effect on the camber.

[olr159w]

Hi. Thanks for that.

I agree with the logic. I'm quite sure the replacement parts were the correct ones and I would have to believe they are dimensionally correct - the only long-shot exception being that one front spring might be a different length from the other. It would be hard to imagine this had never been spotted before but I can't 100% vouch for it without checking, which I'll do in due course.

I believe it's all put together properly but will have the opportunity to check rubber insulation pads when I check the springs.

Here's a link from a past thread viewtopic.php?f=4&t=30076 and a snippet of text I wrote back then :

"But here's a shot of each shock. They are wound fairly high I guess although I read somewhere that Gaz shocks have short bodies. However, one side is still different from the other. From bottom of shock tube to adjuster seat the NS is 125mm whereas the OS is 151mm"

So the difference is not something that will be explained by an insulation pad As I mentioned back then I have this sort of suspicion about long prior accident damage - vague vague memory from when I bought it - and although there are no visible signs nor comment during restoration I do wonder whether that has some bearing on the shock adjuster height issue.

But it has nothing to do with the current slight wheel splay because that's new and not longstanding. I'll try the tightening on the ground thing and see if that helps.

Re the calipers it seems so obvious now that yes, they are back to front. I had honestly just never thought about it. All the brake shields are fitted though.

Do you think it makes any difference which way around the calipers are fitted. I can't swap them easily because I'd need new hydraulic pipes. They only seem to come in kits at Rimmers at least. Given they are about to get an overhaul anyway there's an excuse to swap them to the rear side...... if there's any point?

thks

[SprintMWU773V]

Of course a standard shock has just one platform height. I took out some crusty ones from mine last week and they measure 165mm from the centre of the bush eye to the top of the seat. I would suggest you have something massively wrong to have your platform heights so different. They should be set the same to start with and then if you're going to alter them individually you should really do so when using corner weight scales, just doing it by eye is not the way to do it.

Also I think you do really do need to check the shimming as normally with a lowered suspension you'd have to add more shims to in effect push the top out to compensate. For example my car prior to dismantling had significantly lowered suspension and I found no fewer than 3 shims per side! Adding or removing shims is easy to do. You'll find the shims you can buy new now are about 2/3rds of the thickness of the originals.

[DOLOMITE 135]

From bottom of shock tube to adjuster seat the NS is 125mm whereas the OS is 151mm"

151-125=26mm, 1" =25.4mm, I would check you do not have a single 1" lowered spring.

I have this sort of suspicion about long prior accident damage - vague vague memory from when I bought it

It's probably worth checking the wishbone mountings onto the subframe to ensure they look ok.

But it has nothing to do with the current slight wheel splay because that's new and not longstanding.

If by wheel splay you mean the toe in / out of the front wheels, as the front suspension has had various parts replaced the tracking will probably be out and will require resetting.

Re the calipers, I have no experience of mounting the calipers other than the factory set up so can not comment on yours.

[olr159w]

I'll remove the front shocks and check everything. I believe it is all put together properly but I am getting suspicious about the spring lengths. I just looked out the receipt and the car has std ride height HD springs. If anybody knows the unfitted length of these that might be a help although I guess they sag over time but the issue is whether they are both the same.

My measurement is probably centre of bush eye to bottom of locking ring so there's likely another 5mm to the top of the seat. Still, I'm not really bothered about that, it's the difference that raises questions.

I have also written to Gaz about the two locking ring issue - see that earlier thread.

Will also check the wishbone mountings but again have no perception that they are anything but OK. To recap also this car never seemed to have a problem until the adj shocks were fitted. So again it does make you think about the spring lengths.

The car isn't supposed to be significantly lowered. Maybe 1cm at the font and std at the back but agree tracking needs resetting.

By splay I meant that wheel looks slightly further out at base than at top. I wouldn't say its major though.

And re calipers fair enough. If anyone else has experience with them fitted on leading edge please let me know. Sadly, it's all starting to raise a few questions about the restorer actually.

Is it possible to just buy the short copper hoses on the front wheels separately rather than in a whole of car kit (per RB). I could easily swap the calipers to trailing edge when doing their overhaul

thanks

[SprintMWU773V]

Is it possible to just buy the short copper hoses on the front wheels separately rather than in a whole of car kit (per RB). I could easily swap the calipers to trailing edge when doing their overhaul thanks

You can certainly buy tube by the metre over here complete with the flared ends and unions fitted. I would imagine that you can get them over your way too. I bought mine from Stevsons in Birmingham but don't know if they'll ship internationally. Kunifer is preferable to copper if you have the option, it's marginally more expensive but is arguably safer. In fact I'm fairly sure it's illegal to use copper in Australia but I could be wrong.

[sprint95m]

Is it possible to just buy the short copper hoses on the front wheels separately rather than in a whole of car kit (per RB).

Yes but please use Kunifer (copper-nickel) rather than copper for any pipes exposed to movement or vibration..

Any motor repairer will be able to make these up.
Alternatively you can make your own, in the UK a professional flaring tool is about £130,
you can buy pipe and unions from any motor factor.
Brake pipe is 3/16" bore.



Ian.

[olr159w]

Thanks guys. Getting them made up is one possibility but does anywhere sell the correct part for the Dolly with unions and all ready to go other than being shaped to fit? I know RB within a whole car kit. What I really want are the two items out of that kit.

thks

[SprintMWU773V]

You won't find any on the shelf you'll need to have them especially made. Simply measure what you need, note the unions and someone should be able to make some very easily. Unless you're doing a lot it's not worth buying a flaring kit as they are expensive and the cheap ones are rubbish.

As I say I used Stevsons 0121 472 1702. They have records on file which on some Dolly pipes are wrong but the front calliper one is alright. Or give them the length and union sizes etc. Should only be a few pounds each plus delivery.

[olr159w]

Hi thanks. I know they are theoretically available off the shelf because they come in whole of car kits from Rimmers. What I really want to do is buy the ready to fit parts directly while I'm buying a few other bits and pieces. Guess I need to ask RB

[olr159w]

I just loosened off the shock adjusters and measured the spring lengths. The car is on axle stands under the subframe. I took a couple of other measurements as well.

NS OS

spring length 310 306
shock adj screw edge to base of adj ring prior to loosening 107 133
floor to C.line lowest bolt wbone bracket fixed strut to subframe 310 310
floor to centre of front wheel hub bolt cover 338 318

So the car is sitting on jacks and is essentially level per 3rd measurement.
As set prior to loosening off the adjuster the NS adj is less wound up than the OS 2.5cm
The springs are essentially the same length although of course I can't tell whether they behave the same in use
Sitting at rest on the axle stands the wheel centre on the NS is 2cm higher than the OS. I think it therefore makes sense that the OS needs to be more cranked up in order to keep it appearing level with the NS that starts off 2cm higher.

I took a bunch of pictures of the sub frame, wishbone mountings, suspension links and turrets but to be honest nothing looks gigantically out of whack. I haven't posted them because I don't think you'd be able to tell anything.

The only issue that's left is that bits of the suspension were tightened with it still on axle stands. When I put it back on the floor - which will be a while because I need to order bits from the UK - I will attend to this aspect. At that time I'll report back !!

If anyone has any other thoughts on this beforehand please let me know

thanks