General Chat for advice

For everything to do with Dolomites, Toledos, FWD cars and Dolomite-based kitcars.
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GrahamFountain
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Re: General Chat for advice

#46 Post by GrahamFountain »

Carledo wrote: Standard Sprint, 220mm disc, 2x 48mm pistons, hub centre to piston centre distance 87mm

TJ conversion, 239mm disc, 1x 54mm piston, hub centre to piston centre distance 104 mm.

I couldn't think of any accurate way to measure the area of eccentrically shaped pads
From those data, the TJ conversion gives an increase of 20 percent (1.195:1) from the larger pistons and 27 percent (1.266:1) from the larger disc. That would give 51 percent (1.51287:1) total increase in front effort. What increase that gives in overall brake effort depends on the brake bias, but I would imagine it's at least a third more. But, you can't increase the maximum deceleration of the car unless you upgrade the tires by at least the same amount. And that's not possible with road tires, and I question its possibility with any tire that will fit on 13 x 5.5 inch wheels. So, as far as I'm concerned, it's massive.

The pad area isn't significant to the increased brake effort, but will matter for fade. Look at the trapezoidal rule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapezoidal_rule) if you want to estimate the areas and difference.

Graham
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).
AndyJ

Re: General Chat for advice

#47 Post by AndyJ »

Just the cooling side of the equation to sort out now then. :-)
Carledo
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Re: General Chat for advice

#48 Post by Carledo »

AndyJ wrote:Just the cooling side of the equation to sort out now then. :-)
The Golf discs on the TJ conversion are vented, that takes care of the cooling nicely! No more fade or boiled brake fluid!

Steve
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
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Re: General Chat for advice

#49 Post by GrahamFountain »

I did the calcs on the numbers given rather quickly this morning. But now, looking at them, I am a bit confused by one - the increase in piston centre to hub centre radius. The VW disc is only about 10 mm bigger in radius than the Doly's and the Sierra calliper pistons are about 3 mm bigger in radius. So how does the piston centre to hub centre radius increase by 17 mm? That would mean the outer edge of the Sierra piston is somthing like 10 mm closer to the edge of the VW disc than the Doly's was to its disc edge. 10 mm sounds like a lot in that context.

Graham
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).
Carledo
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Re: General Chat for advice

#50 Post by Carledo »

GrahamFountain wrote:I did the calcs on the numbers given rather quickly this morning. But now, looking at them, I am a bit confused by one - the increase in piston centre to hub centre radius. The VW disc is only about 10 mm bigger in radius than the Doly's and the Sierra calliper pistons are about 3 mm bigger in radius. So how does the piston centre to hub centre radius increase by 17 mm? That would mean the outer edge of the Sierra piston is somthing like 10 mm closer to the edge of the VW disc than the Doly's was to its disc edge. 10 mm sounds like a lot in that context.

Graham
I wondered if you'd notice that! The piston on the ford caliper actually overhangs the disc by about 8mm. There is a corresponding curved section on the outer edge of the pad backplate (but not the lining) to accomodate this. I've taken a photo (actually I took it yesterday) of the two pads together where this can be seen, just need to upload it to the computer, then photobucket, then here, hence the delay. There is actually a small gap between the outer edge of a stock Dolly piston and the outer edge of the disc, maybe 3-4mm.

Steve
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
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Re: General Chat for advice

#51 Post by GrahamFountain »

Carledo wrote:The piston on the ford caliper actually overhangs the disc by about 8mm.
Ah, that'll do it.

But it will mean my results will be a bit excessive, because I assumed that the pistons were the in same relationship to the discs, and they're not. I did do a quick re-do, in case it was 94 not 104 mm, which gives 29 percent overall gain. So the correct answer will be in between about 30 and 50 percent. 40? I'll see what the pics show and have a go at a more accurate estimate, but it could be a bit of a problem geting a very accurate one.
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).
Carledo
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Re: General Chat for advice

#52 Post by Carledo »

Just had a look at the pic (still on the phone) and its not very clear. I'll take some more tomorrow and get some more exact measurements.

steve
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
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Carledo
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Re: General Chat for advice

#53 Post by Carledo »

Here are the pad pics, first the Ford pad, you can see the mark where the piston has touched the pad, the rivet in the tin clip marks the centre of the piston. Since the Ford piston is 54mm and the swept radius of the lining on the disc is only 47mm, there is of necessity an overlap and this is on the outside. The overlap beyond the edge of the lining is 8mm as close as I can measure it.

Image

Standard pad, effectively the whole of the piston bears on the lining material, the gap I thought existed is just a figment cos the bearing surface of the piston is a couple of mm smaller than the actual piston diameter. The swept radius of the lining on the disc is identical to the Ford pad at 47mm.

Image

Finally the stock pad superimposed on the Ford pad. This is a lot more lining, even if it doesn't do anything for efficiency!

Image

Steve
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.
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Re: General Chat for advice

#54 Post by GrahamFountain »

I think I need to relate the piston and pad to disc, but I'll see what I can get off the net on the pads, and relate it using the dimentions you've given, first. But the assumption that the pistons relate to the disc in the same way, and so centre of pressure will have moved by (at least very nearly) the same distance as the centre of the piston, looks doubtful. So that, and understanding it, will complicate the calcs. It may be possible to assume the pressure centre moves the same as the centroid of the pad material, which will be easy enough to locate, given dimentions and some graph paper. But I think I'd like to see how the pad material relates to the disc too, i.e. is there any overhang?

Graham
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).
Carledo
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Re: General Chat for advice

#55 Post by Carledo »

GrahamFountain wrote:I think I need to relate the piston and pad to disc, but I'll see what I can get off the net on the pads, and relate it using the dimentions you've given, first. But the assumption that the pistons relate to the disc in the same way, and so centre of pressure will have moved by (at least very nearly) the same distance as the centre of the piston, looks doubtful. So that, and understanding it, will complicate the calcs. It may be possible to assume the pressure centre moves the same as the centroid of the pad material, which will be easy enough to locate, given dimentions and some graph paper. But I think I'd like to see how the pad material relates to the disc too, i.e. is there any overhang?

Graham
In both cases, the lining material reaches to within a mm of the edge of the disc, this gathered from looking at my TJ conversion on the Toledo (difficult to show in a photo) and comparing the wear marks on several old, well worn standard discs. I can do photos of the pads laid on the related discs if that will help, positioning them accurately will not be difficult, there's not much leeway for error and at least in the case of the standard discs, the wear marks will guide me.
From looking at the original pad rear face it is clear that the centre of the piston is also not the centre of the friction material but is also displaced outward though not to such a large degree.
Having done a couple of quick sums, the radii from hub centres to lining centres are :- Standard 85.5mm TJ 95mm. So even looked at this way the effective pressure centre has still moved outboard by almost 10mm. Not having the physics to determine whether the piston centre or the lining centre (or some function of the two) controls the pressure centre, I hereby hand it back to you! (I failed my physics "O" level, the teachers voice sent me to sleep!)

Steve
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
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Re: General Chat for advice

#56 Post by GrahamFountain »

Any pictures of how the pads sit on the disc and the pad material would be great. Would it be possible to show the pads in position both ways up?

Graham
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).
Carledo
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Re: General Chat for advice

#57 Post by Carledo »

GrahamFountain wrote:Any pictures of how the pads sit on the disc and the pad material would be great. Would it be possible to show the pads in position both ways up?

Graham
Yeah I thought of that when I realized there are no proper pics of the linings and how they relate, will do!

Steve
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.
Carledo
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Re: General Chat for advice

#58 Post by Carledo »

Just got around to uploading the pics

Stock first, pad the "right" way up

Image

and the "wrong" way up, but it shows how the lining relates to the disc

Image

Now the TJ bits in the same order

Image

Image

Maybe this will help, Merry Christmas!

Steve
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.
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Re: General Chat for advice

#59 Post by GrahamFountain »

That should keep me entertained for a while.

Graham
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).
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GrahamFountain
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Re: General Chat for advice

#60 Post by GrahamFountain »

Image

This is what I managed to extract from the images and combine on a single drawing. I do have a bit of a concern that it clearly shows the Sierra pad lining overhanging the VW disk. So either there's more parallax in the picture than it appears (camera too close to subject), or the effective pad area is quite a bit smaller than the actual pad. But if that were the case, it would show as a step in worn pads: I've seen that with the big Princess pads on a TR7 disk if you don't move one or both of the mounting holes on the calliper; and with TR7 discs, the overhangs meet before the pad wears to the backing, and they go a bit funny after that. But with a much thicker, vented disc, I don't imagin it's a problem with this set.

As a cross check, measuring the piston - hub centre distances from the drawing gives the 104.75 mm for the TJ set, and 86.25 for the Doly's. Whereas, the values Carledo measured from the parts were 104 and 87. So there's well less than one percent discrepancy.

On the basis that the overhang with the Sierra pad is real, and using only the area on the disc as the effective area value, the pad lining area change measures as 49 percent (1:1.49.1). I might do better, but I find counting very much beyond a hundred of the little squares to be a pain.

My estimate for the position of the centroid of the doly pad is, as near as I can tell, coincident with the piston centre, which is exactly what I expected.

My estimate for the distance from the hub to the centroid of the effective area of the Sierra pad is 100.00 mm – 4 mm away from the piston centre. I didn't estimate the position of the centroid of the whole Sierra pad lining area.

Assuming the same relationships between the pressure centres and the pad centroids for both sets, those values reduce the increase from moving the pressure centre from 20 percent (I wrote the piston area and larger disk effects down in the wrong order before, and it should have been 27 percent from piston area and 20 from the larger disc) to 15 percent. Still assuming the overhang is real, that reduces the overall increase in brake effort from 51 to 46 percent (1.27 * 1.15 = 1.46).

However, I'm not sure the relationships between centroids and pressure centres will be exactly the same, given the difference between the Sierra's piston and centroid centroids: I don't think that the piston overhangs the disc matters to the upgrade in effort from the piston diameters, but I suspect it will also affect the relationship between the pressure centre and centroid. So it's possible the increase in front brake effort is a little bit higher than 46 percent. It must still be less than 51 percent, and I suspect it's a bit closer to 46 percent than to 51.

That still appears to be far more than the most I believe I can ever get from improving the grip with the best possible road tires (even assuming I start from the crappiest). So, for a road car, I'd still call that a fairly massive upgrade.

Graham
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).
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