Ringers and clones and differences

[Jon Tilson]

So the thread was locked. I dont see why myself as the thread raised some important issues of a technical nature.

Somebody clearly felt miffed that a potential sale had been damaged by this debate. If the seller had been completely upfront then that would not
have happened.

If I ever finish building a clone and then decide to sell it, I wont be hiding its provenance and certainly wont be passing it off as one of the golden 1st 1500.

As for the technical bits afaiaw, Sprints and all other dolomites are 140lb a corner out of the box. The ohv square lights and 1500HL dont get a rear anti roll bars as standard.

Ohv cars also get a smaller servo and some early Sprints have a thicker anti roll bar.

Sprints are subject to the same range changes as all other dollies and got various badges, bumpers and number plate lights and hrw switch movements and wiring loom variations. The other Sprint difference that comes to mind is the tunnel cover, then that riveted heat shield by the downpipe and the lsv.

While I accept that some parts books list "uprated" shocks for the sprint I dont believe they were actually sold different from the factory.

What else have you got so we all know?

This board has a reputation for fairness and freedom of speech. Even when we fall out as all good families do we seem to be able to bury the hatchet and move on.
I hope the locked thread gets unlocked again and this comment thread is not seen as an act of rebellion.

Moderating is a difficult job and I respect the right to do and the spirit in which its done even if I dont agree.... (what twice in umpteen years?)

Jonners

[tinweevil]

As for the technical bits afaiaw, Sprints and all other dolomites are 140lb a corner out of the box.

Jonners

Nope.

Front - OHV, 1850 & Sprint each have a different spring listed in the '76 parts book. If you include wrong side drive the number goes up to five variations and include factory uprated options there are seven different specifications of spring fitted. Shocks were the same across the board.
Rear - Springs are the same for all with one heavy duty option listed. For shocks there are OHV, slant and heavy duty.

So many variations and what do the usual suspects list now? Two? Add in the early cars and it could be even worse. I've often wondered if the spring specifications could be found in the BMH archives.

[Jon Tilson]

Hmm thats interesting Tin. The 140lb per inch rate has been quoted by the forum gurus for as long as I can remember.
Maybe the parts book is showing differences for early and late type mounts and springs with flattened edges that came up on another thread.

You would actually expect the Sprint to be a tad different at the back and the front cos the engine is slightly heavier...but maybe the box is lighter with its all alloy casing.
And at the back the Sprint diff is a good bit meatier, so maybe a stiffer shock, but then maybe not cos the alloy wheels bring the weight back down.

Or maybe they were just too cheapskate to do it properly and adopted a "that will do" mentality. Wouldn't surprise me one bit, given that the dolly was always a parts bin car anyway.

Jonners

[JPB]

Somebody clearly felt miffed that a potential sale had been damaged by this debate.

I thought that I'd got in under the wire on that thread before the thread was locked but to clarify: No sale was spoiled as the reason for the withdrawal of the car was that the seller had the good sense to accept an offer made by an eBayist who went to see it with money in their pocket. This eliminates the usual eBay fees which are pretty dear these days, the seller pulls it as "no longer available" so the only fees to be paid are those for any photographs over and above the first. These at 60p each which, even if you use the full 11 extras, is a darned sight cheaper than paying around 10% of the eventual price.

[Carledo]

I don't know too much about the rates on the intermediate Dollys but the original springs and shox on the front of my 74 Toledo were not only considerably lower weight than 140lb standard Sprint springs (if thats what they are) but also were about 1/2" smaller in diameter and the matching top spring keeper plate was correspondingly smaller. At the rear the standard Toledo shox and keepers accepted standard Sprint springs but made my lightened 2 door shell sit 3" too high and gave a bone jarringly hard ride! I am still trying to get information on rates/ free length etc on 2 door Tolly rear springs (my official works manual doesn't say) as I can't order different ones to lower it and stiffen it (a bit) until I know what I've got as a starting point! If anyone has info on this I would be very grateful!
Toledos also have NO antiroll bars as standard though all the mounting holes are present, front and rear.

Steve

[DoloWIGHTY]

Didn't the Sprint have the holes (with captive nuts) pre-drilled in the floor pan for the Load Sensing Valve, whilst others in the range didn't?

[Mad Mart]

Yep. But it is four studs on a plate which is pushed through the holes from under the rear seat and then the plate pop riveted in the centre.

[sprint95m]

Somebody clearly felt miffed that a potential sale had been damaged by this debate. If the seller had been completely upfront then that would not
have happened.

There is no evidence that the seller was deliberately underhand (none that I can see at any rate, that is).
Do you know of such evidence?

[Dazza]

I thought that thread was a great read, even just for pointers and things to look for when your parting with your hard earned!!!! I know that it's hard to be a 100% sure when your buying something over 30 yrs old but at least discussions like that give some chance...

[Edin Dundee]

I just found the differences interesting in an anorak way. I don't think any of the differences will ever affect me, but it's interesting to see what the consensus is about the differences. It would appear that even the experts aren't sure on some points.

[Jon Tilson]

Ian the guy advertised a reshelled 1500HL in vermillion with the identity of one of the golden 1500 early Sprints.

He said nothing about the reshell in his advert. He was initially reluctant to get an MoT and his early photos showed no VIN plate.

I rest my case m'lud.

As to disagreements among experts, its hardly surprising. Very few of us have owned these from new so its pretty hard to be absolute about how they left the factory.
Aftermarket suppliers parts books also dont always agree with factory parts books, so we get the myth that TR7's were sole with Lucas distributors and Sprints with Delco ones, both of which are baloney.

Over the years things like brake pads specs also change and Unipart probably decided at some stage that they couldnt be bothered to sell seperate pads for Sprints etc...

Then we have the confusion of ST parts that were available new as dealer fit options....

Then we get confusions like the dolomite 135 badges and Toledo TS's that never actually ever got sold, but Leyland books exist that describe some of them.

Dolomitery is therefore not an exact science, but we do our best to keep our anoraks nice and bright.

Jonners

[sprint95m]

Ian the guy advertised a reshelled 1500HL in vermillion with the identity of one of the golden 1500 early Sprints.

He said nothing about the reshell in his advert. He was initially reluctant to get an MoT and his early photos showed no VIN plate.

I rest my case m'lud.

A weak case .

The seller didn't mention the early Commission number in his advert.


The first 2000 Sprints were Mimosa according to the official press release, which has been published in Dolly Mixture.
Pre 1980 cars don't actually require to show a chassis number for an MOT, which is just as well as it is only the later Dolomites,
(with the very long Commission numbers) that actually have one.


A few years ago there was quite a lot written on this topic in Practical Classics, a discussion initiated by some Lotus owners
losing their car's registration number and being allocated a Q reg after fitting a new galzanised chassis. The DVLA didn't have
a definite position on this (chassis replacement) or on the use of bodyshells (new or s/h) for pre 1980 cars.
A loophole.


I can tell the difference between the three types of Dolomite shell but that is only any indication of build date.

[soe8m]

I alway's see a shell as partnumber 913828 and if i need another engine (UKC0570) because of faillure or a door (814742) i will use them if i need it. As the most parts are not available new i will use used parts. Another shell does not change the identity of my car.

Jeroen

[sprint95m]

For clarification I will detail the different shells used by (1850) Dolomites and Sprints.

There are three versions
1. early 1850
2. intermediate 1850 and early Sprint
3. 1500HL, 1850HL and later Sprints.


Versions 1 and 2 are almost identical save the front panel and choice of interior light support panel.
Bare bodyshell numbers are 912937 (rhd) and 912938 (lhd).
For version 1 you needed to fit interior light panel 819153 (round interior light)
and for 2 you need 631654 (rectangular interior light. This is situated in the same place whether you have rhd or lhd).
Version 1 used front panel 814529 and version 2 used XKC0504. Visually the earlier type has a shallower valance leaving more
of the front subframe/suspension visible. There are no holes for attaching a Sprint spoiler.

Version 3 part numbers are XKC2412 (rhd) and XKC2413 (lhd)
(Front panel number is ZKC2657).
You can tell version 3 because it has different rails fitted above the door apertures, the difference being required due to the
introduction of (cheaper ) new grab handles.


This is from the parts catalogues 520502/B and RTC9822CA.



Hope this is clear enough.

[Jon Tilson]

Just to set the record straight.

The original seller now has an MoT. He withdrew the car from ebay as a result of a water leak, but intends to pt it back soon.

The car has had a private plate but the history from DVLA looks legit. (his words)

He has no intention of passing the car off for something it is not.

Jonners