front shocks - help, preserve my sanity

[olr159w]

Hi.

So I've been rebuilding the front suspension due to bushes being worn. The whole lot has been apart then new bushes and new balljoints and back together.

This morning was the last step and involved replacing the shocks. I have uprated springs and Gaz adjustables. Not possessing any coil spring compressors I had given these to a shop to replace the bushes with the strict instructions to put everything back together.

I got under the car this morning and the shock assemblies don't fit :

WP_20151126_11_36_49_Pro.jpg (107.9 KiB) Viewed 1944 times

What you see is a) the difference between shock length and mounting hole above it b) upper balljoint mis-located just to keep it in place.

I figured it was a tight fit and took the balljoint and mounting plates apart but really the difference is huge and there is no way it's going to fit. So I'm thinking what did I do wrong. The car is the same of course and only replaced a couple of balljoints and a few bushes.

Am I missing something? The only explanation I have is that the shop re-assembled the shock and spring assemblies wrong and they are too long. I can't see it can be anything else.

Two further things :
1) is it possible to de-tension the spring/shock assembly with the height adjuster thread such that it can be disassembled without a compressor?
2) just to make everything even better, a thread stripped on one of the spring upper mounting plates. Rimmers don't have these. Mick Dolphin looks like he has second hand ones. Anyone else know of other sources? Hoping 1. above is possible so I can replace without need to find a coil spring compressor again.

thanks

[Mad Mart]

The ball joint isn't fitted correctly and you have two triangular plates missing... (Edit: I think you already said that!) You usually have to lever the suspension down with a breaker bar or something.




I bought a spring compressor from Halfords, about £20 iirc. It's not great but it does the job.

I don't think you can wind the adjuster down far enough on the fronts to facilitate fitting the springs without a compressor. You can on the rears.

[Jon Tilson]

I would try winding the adjuster down to make the spring pan base come a bit further down the shock body.

Then detatch the top ball joint so the upper and lower wishbones can move independantly. Then fit the shock and triangular
plates to the top wishbone back hole and leave the bolt loose but washers and nut in place to tighten later.

Then bring the top balljoint up and angle it so that the wishbone hole locates and stick the bolt in loose with washers etc...

Then lever the back bit of the balljoint down so it lines up with the triangular plate...put the bolt in.

Now jack the car under the lower wishbone so the suspension is as it would be if the car was on its wheels and tighten it all up.

If you do change the spring and shock spring compressors are essential...I use 3 on the fronts - 1 and a half pairs.
They arent dear...

Jonners

[olr159w]

Thanks for that.

I've decided that given nothing else has changed, the shop that worked on the shock assys must have altered the height adjusters. The result being that the assys are now too long. I agree that if I wind the adjusters down I can make the assys shorter and then be able to fit them.

It suggests to me that the shop didn't use spring compressors to separate shock and spring and perhaps just unwound the adjusters all the way. Why else would they have altered the adjusters? The whole point of getting them to do it was to leave this untouched.....grrrrrr

Now I will have to move the adjusters to fit the assys and then afterwards reset the vehicle ride heights. I seem to remember that to get the car level the adjusters were different on each side. It's just something I try not to think about.

As far as the stripped thread on the upper mounting plate goes my choices are leave it, replace it now, replace it later (removing it from the urgency to get the thing delivered to Australia and fitted before a show Dec 13) or grind/drill it out and substitute a bolt.

Leaving it seems risky even in the short term. Grinding it off will likely be beset with issues and is a bit of a bodge anyway so fixing it is the best option. Hence my Q about using the height adjuster to remove the spring compression and thus disassemble. It would be convenient if possible although I agree probably unlikely. But otherwise it means finding a spring compressor from somewhere. I'm not in a rush to buy one. It would likely be vastly over-priced here anyway

rgds

[Carledo]

Right, there are a number of points here, 1) It IS possible (and desireable really) to unwind the adjusters and fit the springs "free"
2) the studs on the topmount ONLY do ANYTHING at all when the wheels are off the ground, when the weight is on the wheels,gravity holds the topmounts in place, having one thread stripped out of 3 is no biggie, at least in the short term!
3) Setting the shox to the same height as the originals will not give you a correct ride height anyway. When I fitted my Gaz' I fitted the springs free, then wound the adjusters up until the springs were just positively located and used that as a base setting, which was about right. However after a few weeks driving , the springs settled, resulting in a lowering effect which had to be adjusted again, then again about 6 months later. Since that 3rd adjustment, which also included a "levelling out" setting, the car has been great.

Steve

[Jon Tilson]

which begs the question how badly stripped is it? Can you cut a new thread with a suitable die nut?

I'm with Steve on the worry about it factor....like he says it only dangles when you have the wheels off the ground...

Jonners

[olr159w]

It's the bolt that also retains the clutch reservoir. Plus it has an earth washer for the electronic ignition. I suspect it's too much stuff to have bitten well on the less optimal thread near the end.

Right now it's "tightened down" excluding the earth connection and will sort of tighten. It's not loose but might go that way under vibration, that sort of thing. And looking at the stud/bolt it looks pretty sorry for itself.

Thanks for advice. I will rebuild suspension using the adjusters to ease the shock assy fitment. Then adjust ride height as required.

I was running it a little lower than standard but nothing at all drastic. It was a while since I did that. Can anyone advise the standard ride height for front and back please?

thks

[Carledo]

The 3 studs in the topmount are equally spaced, when you let the pressure off the spring, turn the topmount round one hole and use a different stud to fix the reservoir and earth!

Steve

[olr159w]

Good idea.

I still prefer the idea of replacing the part but it is juuuust possible that when rotated all bolts will bite.

Thanks

mark

[Carledo]

Been thinking about this and my conclusion is:- the leg will only get shorter once ALL spring tension has been removed. Then any left over thread wound down will be the amount it is shortened by (about an inch and a half, if my car was anything to go by - stock 1850 spring)
When I fitted my Gaz' I ended up removing the hubs completely at the bottom B/Js, assembled the shock and top balljoint to the upper wishbone then hung the hub off the top balljoint and finally levered down the lower track control arm to fit the bottom balljoint since, like you, I couldn't get it all together at the top without 6 hands and several long bars. Not having this equipment at the time, I invented a way round it!
I probably have a good used topmount around somewhere. I'll have a look over the weekend.

Steve

[olr159w]

Hi

I just did this. All the spring tension has to be removed and then, as you continue to unwind, the shock can be compressed resulting in the desired outcome.

It's all back together. I rotated the dodgy upper mount plate and it is slightly better in a different spot. Good enough for me to not worry about an urgent replacement although I'd still like to resolve this problem in due course. If you have a good used topmount do let me know thanks.

The remaining issue is setting the ride height. Can anyone advise the standard height for front and rear based, I assume, on something like the distance from wheel centre to wheel arch at TDC?

I can do trial and error but it would be good to have a starting reference point.

In terms of the damper stiffness setting I have no real need to alter that, but then again when first set-up I can't remember what I did but it would have been quite arbitrary. Searching the forum I'm reading harder at the front, softer at the rear so may see how many clicks there are and go with a 2/3 from soft front and 1/3 from soft rear.

Thks

[ham204]

When I fitted my Gaz' I ended up removing the hubs completely at the bottom B/Js, assembled the shock and top balljoint to the upper wishbone then hung the hub off the top balljoint and finally levered down the lower track control arm to fit the bottom balljoint since, like you, I couldn't get it all together at the top without 6 hands and several long bars.
Steve

I just did this today. Good to know I was on the right track!

[cliftyhanger]

Take great care with Gaz shocks and adjustments.
Friend fitted a pair to the rear of his vitesse. Set them midway, and carried on working on the car for a few months. When the car returned to the road it was lethal, he thought he had assembled the rear suspension incorrectly. I popped over, scrounged a cuppa and we had a look. There was no movement on the shocks at all. Wound them right back, and discovered they were not seized, but soft at zero clicks, but went solid at 5. Rubbish design, you could only use the first 4 clicks. He set them both on 2, ride now correct.
Of course, the dolly shocks my have a different design, his may be faulty? but I doubt it. So I would check you have some movement in those shocks.... do not assume the settings are progressive over the whole adjustment range.

[cleverusername]

Take great care with Gaz shocks and adjustments.
Friend fitted a pair to the rear of his vitesse. Set them midway, and carried on working on the car for a few months. When the car returned to the road it was lethal, he thought he had assembled the rear suspension incorrectly. I popped over, scrounged a cuppa and we had a look. There was no movement on the shocks at all. Wound them right back, and discovered they were not seized, but soft at zero clicks, but went solid at 5. Rubbish design, you could only use the first 4 clicks. He set them both on 2, ride now correct.
Of course, the dolly shocks my have a different design, his may be faulty? but I doubt it. So I would check you have some movement in those shocks.... do not assume the settings are progressive over the whole adjustment range.

I am not a fan of a adjustable shocks, I know they have their place and if you know what you're doing you can get better handling by fitting different components.

The problem is lots of people think adjustable equals better and fit the adjustable ones when they would be better off sticking with teh standard ones. My father has them on his MGF and has also set them to the softest setting. Rendering them a bit pointless.

[Carledo]

The Gaz ASP shox I fitted to the Carledo all those years ago are still there and working fine, no discernnible wear in the lower bushes and I haven't had any problems with the adjustment. On that particular set there are around 40 clicks from full soft to full hard and the incremental difference is noticeable throughout the range, maybe not on a single click, but 3 or 4 make a difference you can feel. I'm running the car 8 clicks from full hard at the front and 6 clicks from full soft at the rear and that works FOR MY CAR! But so little is standard on my car that these settings are no more than a starting point for anyone elses setup!

Steve