Overheating/coolant leak

[HQentity]

Hiya everyone!

Have been having a slight issue with coolant lately. A few weeks ago on a run up to north-east London, the temperature gauge shot up when I pulled into a petrol station over the highest mark. I looked in the engine bay and eventually took the coolant expansion tank cap off, which showed the coolant full to the brim (not where I fill it to!). I popped the cap back on, and opened the thermostat housing which was completely empty. I filled it back up from here and all has been fine.
Now today - I slowed down through a village, the temperature gauge went BELOW half (Its never ever done that?!), then shot up over the highest mark (still going slowly?!). Suspecting the same as before I went to the same places, expansion tank wasn't full but coolant housing dry. It took maybe 750ml to fill back up and then ran as usual. Temperature on the top of the head was reading 90 degrees.

I've definitely got a slight coolant leak from the top of the engine block somewhere but I can't narrow it down, everything backwards of the pump is wet. But its been like the for 2 years? I lose no oil & tiny amounts of white in the oil cap. Today the expansion tank looked a little muddy in the water, but otherwise I've had no issues.

I don't want to be driving where I can't stop and warp the head. Any thoughts on finding the leak, or any other reasons for the housing emptying?!

[sprint95m]

Yes Kyle, the standard has a major flaw in its design whereby when the coolant drops within the engine it does not within the "expansion tank".

The temperature gauge sensor location is high up allowing the reading to be fooled by airflow, meaning that a coolant level fall doesn't necessarily give a high reading
(but may actually show a reading drop as you noticed).
There is a warning about this flaw in the BL workshop manuals.


Firstly, you need to sort the coolant leak.
It does sound to me like the coolant bypass tube is not sealed correctly…....


Secondly, it is very feasible to prevent a reoccurrence of the coolant drop within the engine by employing a proper header tank.
I used a Volvo 850 one for this, sited so that its low level warning is triggered before the coolant drops within the engine,
thereby giving you the opportunity to stop before damage is done to the engine.


Whether you decide to change to a header tank or stay with the standard,
what you really should consider seriously is changing to Evans waterless coolant.
The version you need is Powercool 180 (the Classic 180 is not suitable in a Dolomite).

Hopefully you have been lucky Kyle, with no lasting damage done to your engine.




Ian.

[MIG Wielder]

I bet the heater stopped working as well ?
It would be interesting to know at what point the water level in the header tank started to rise. If it was before the engine started to run hot it could be combustion gas from a faulty head gasket forcing the water back out to the header tank at which point the engine runs hotter due to shortage of coolant and the steam then blows the rest of the water out.
Did the engine suck the water back when it was allowed to cool ?
Tony.

[HQentity]

Okay Ian, thanks for that. I did indeed tighten the bypass tube a little today as It was suspicious.

Having said that, as mentioned by Tony, the heater died too. Furthermore it did suck the water back once it was cool. I'm dreading the HGF which could potentially kill my classic car lifestyle? I don't know that I have the time or money to have it replaced. The best option I have is to wait a few months and get a hire car for a while. I pray it doesn't come to that!

[GTS290N]

There are kits around to test for CO2 in the coolant, I would recommend using one, they range from £8 to £80, here's one for £15
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BT-3-COMBUSTI ... SwLEtYi8Gi

Jeroen recommended this method (not this kit) to test for a HG fail, and looking at lots of forums they seem to be good. If I ever suspect a HG again, or if I'm fitting another engine, or buying a car, I'll be using one of these. Could have saved me an engine. Always wise after the event....

[GrahamFountain]

I had similar ups and downs of the guage when the Sprint was leaking. Fortunatly that was "only" the water pump, which can be easy or hard, depending on luck.

The last engine did blow the head gasket. At first it was loosing water with, I think, a bit of steam from the exhaust. So I retorqued the head, which took more turns than I liked. That actually made it worse and the first time it got propper hot, it blew the water out the header overflow. This was the second time the gasket had gone: the first engine I've ever had blow one in 30 odd year of using Sprint engined cars for daily drives. If you keep the antifreeze topped up all year they don't seem to be a problem. Whereas, I've smashed 2 set of pistons through using too low octain petrol or too much advance on the ignition. I've also had 3 TR7s disolve, one get rodgered by a Discovery, one fall in a ditch, oh, and worn one engine out twice. But the only head gaskets I've had blow was this one, twice - first a few weeks/months after I bought a car -, with what I think is a rimmers re-conned engin in it.

But if yours takes a couple of weeks to leak enough for trouble, I'd tighten what will tighten, if you haven't already, and put a bottle of leak stop in and check the levels often, to see if it's stopped leaking. I use Barrs, because it's worked a couple of times, but I don't know it's better than any other.

But I'd also look very, very carefully for any signs of water marking the block from the slot under the waterpump. You may not see any water ever, but brown stains down from there arent good, especially if you clean them up and they come back. It's got to be a favourite for leaks with the 1850, TR7 and Sprint engines.


Graham

[cliftyhanger]

Re bypass tube, the one I thought was being referred to can't be tightened, but is a tube with O rings at each end that fits between inlet manifold and head.

My first bit of investigation would be to wash as much muck etc off the leaky area, get it dry (good luck with that this weather!) and try to watch for the leak appearing.

Low coolant level can play all sorts of tricks, it needs to get fixed sooner rather than too late!o

[HQentity]

Of course!! What a novice. I replaced the bypass tube & one of the rubber tubes above the engine block together and mixed their names up. I don't think the bypass tube is leaking, theres no fluid sitting in the bottom of it around it. I'm going to try and dry the engine block this morning and see where it takes me. I've ordered one of the chemical tests off eBay for the HG as well to check it.

Time will tell!

EDIT: This morning I've taken a look at the leak, to me it looks like its seeping out of the head gasket under the inlet manifold. There is a chance its coming out of the inlet manifold I guess but it's very hard to tell. I will visit my mechanic and see what he thinks!

[Carledo]

There is a water gallery into the inlet manifold from the head adjacent to the No1 cylinder port. A leak here is by no means unheard of! If it is that, you are a lucky bunny cos that is the cheapest fix of all water leaks in that area! It's also right by the head joint, so can be confusing. If in doubt, pull the manifold first and try a new gasket there, it would be embarrassing indeed to pull the head off if it's not needed!

Steve

[HQentity]

Hello all,

Just a quick update. I did the coolant test for exhaust emissions, and it has come back as positive, so I do indeed have the dreaded head gasket failure.

I haven't been able to access the dolly wiki for some time now, I was going to use it for some advice on the issue? Does anyone have any words of wisdom? I spoke to my mechanic of many years, and he wouldn't do the work; he's never refused anything ever. I'm just worried I guess that I'll break the studs and have no car.

Any help greatly appreciated!

EDIT: Spoke to my mechanic and he has recommended trying head gasket repair, namely Steel seal. What is the overall opinion on this? Will it be okay for the coolant system?!

[MIG Wielder]

I have done two 1850 cylinder heads now. The big problem as you are probably aware is extracting the angled head studs. On my first one all the studs eventually came out using just the triple nut method. The one at the front snapped off level with the surface of the head. I eventually got the head off by using a club hammer with a heavy wooden buffer to rotate the head one way then the other around that one stud.
The most recent one on SWK I had 3 studs break off in the same way. I bought the stud extractor tool which worked well on the ones that did come out. I resorted to getting some 9/16 in Starret hole saws modified to drill down the outside of the studs.The head eventually came off but I ruined it by drilling off centre and into a water way. So I got a replacement head off E-Bay.
I think the first thing is Don't Panic !
I'll P.M. you a reading list of URLs I collected before I started doing mine. I think I'd do lots of homework first. They were very interesting, and provided a lot of background.
The problem is not specific to the 1850 Dolomite.
Its also on the Triumph Stag and TR7 so reading their Discussion Boards was also useful.
There is some duff info; though like the suggestion of using Easy-Outs (!!!) and the story of hanging the TR7 head and the whole of the front of the car by the camshaft from a hoist . It apparantly freed itself overnight !!!
Since I did my head a removal tool has been designed by the TR7 EU group and the SOC. The SOC had a stand next to us at the November Restoration show and were dismantling a Stag engine. Using this fabricated tool they had the nearside head off it the time it took me to eat a pork roll and drink a coffee.
Locating this tool and seeing if it is possible to borrow it would be my preferred choice.
Does anyone have a contact with those nice people in the SOC ?
Sadly the item I wrote for the Dolly Wiki seems to have disappeared but I still have some text and pictures.
Hey, If I can get an 1850 head off and I'm not even a mecchy, then anyone can.
HTH,
Tony.
Locating this tool and seeing if it is possible to borrow it would be my preferred choice.

[GTS290N]

Like Tony I advocate caution and careful planning. I ruined an engine trying to take a head off with the engine in the car and the car in the lock-up garage!
If the head won't come off first time make sure you can remove the engine to enable a swing with a big hammer!

I do have a baby stud extractor somewhere which I purchased from Tony - finding it is a problem, and even then it will only be of use on 'mildly recalcitrant' heads, no use on a truly stuck one.

Once the head is off what do you do with it? I would be tempted to have it inspected by a specialist and skimmed/new valve guides/seats sorted, but this costs. £300 is about the cheapest you find for a good job, but you can pay anything you want!

Of course you can just put it back on the way it came off after cleaning the block and head faces.

You'll need a head gasket seat complete with manifold gaskets and the big o-ring for the inlet manifold, might as well have new bypass tube and o-rings, the half-moon gaskets for the cam cover and a new cam cover gasket. A full head gasket set will have all of this.

You need to lock the cam with the screw cunningly provided and without dropping the thing in the engine.
Drain the coolant before starting!

There is a very good guide somewhere, I'll see if I saved it.

I have the drawings for the Stag head puller, it is a beast of a thing and won't be cheap to get made...as Tony says, try to hire it from the SOC.

I don't recommend the head gasket sealant stuff.

[GTS290N]

Previous threads:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=11449&hilit=torqueing I have a copy of the picture that Ian originally inserted in this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21911&p=214776&hili ... ng#p214776

http://www.triumphwedgeowners.org/uploa ... ig.jpg?320

[HQentity]

Thanks very much for the many suggestions.

I've been in touch with several people this afternoon which has lead me to the following plan:

- Using penetrating fluid and blowtorches on the studs to try and loosen them up as much as possible.

- Attempt to get the studs out myself using the 2 or 3 nut method.

- Remove other studs by trying to saw through them (use the rope method to push the head off and get clearance), or by rotating the head around the stud (can this be done with the engine in the bay?!).

If I fail with all of this I will have to send it off to a garage with more capable hands to finish the job off. If I succeed, I will spend the difference on getting the head skimmed etc. I'm very excited by the prospect of getting inside the engine & see how it all looks in there! So far on my shopping list I have:

- 1 head gasket (having trouble sourcing the Payen ones; are the Rimmer 1850 ones ok?) and relevant gaskets: cam cover gasket & U rubbers, all inlet manifold stuff, bypass tube o-rings.

- Head nuts and studs and bolts (are these all still source-able?!)

- Blowtorch

- Cleaning fluids etc for head face & engine block

- Lots of beer

The SOC person I contacted knew nothing of a stud extractor. I will be happy to try any of them out (including the smaller simpler ones) if they are better than the 3 nut method. Do they damage the head at all?

[MIG Wielder]

Hi Kyle, Quite a lot of good questions there. But first of all I really admire your enthusiasm for diving in there and wanting to sort this !
1. Here was my shopping list.
bookmarks folder “1850 head removal”

Stud removal Tony Hart Stag bits

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triumph-Stag- ... ELZnjdrKRQ

Head studs ULC1143 = 149080 x5
Nuts UKC 9954 x5
Cam cover gasket GEG487
Head gasket GEG389
Cam cover seals 148090 x4
1/2 moon seals 144488 x2
Head bolts UKC9870 x2
UKC9871 x3
Cam Sprocket botts SH604041 x2
Tab washer 154161
Inlet manifold gaskets GEG670
GEG671
Large O-ring 157415
Bypass tube UKC2538
or O-rings TRS 1114 x2
Exhaust manifold studs 122285 x2
Brass long nuts 108951 3/8 UNC x 9/16 in long.

Some notes : The head stud extractor is made by Tony Hart of Stag fame and is very similar to the one I have.
1850 Head gaskets from Rimmers look like they are on order at present.
The head studs have been remanufactured and are about £7 each.
*Yes I have used the Rimmers Head gaskets, the new studs and the other gaskets and they are still good 3 years on.
* When I finally extracted my head studs they were still dry so the Plus-gas had not penetrated down the length of the stud. Give it a try anyway.
* I used a complete can of butane heating up studs to no effect. The mass of the head and block is so great it had little effect.
Oxyacetylene may be better.
*I reckon the stud extractor is better than the 3-nut method,it does less damage to the threaded end. If the SOC has never heard of the stud extractor you are probably talking to the wrong guy. You need the technical guy who has actually taken a head off.
* The rope method sounds interesting but rather than saw the studs,I'd continue to lift it as far as possible.

Great attitude ! I reckon you probably won the lottery last week ! So go for it ! All 5 studs will probably come straight out especially if the head has been off previously.
Good Luck,
Tony.