Clutch Shudder = severe car shudder

[Sundowner]

Hi,
I've just returned home after having the Sprint away for a big car show weekend.
All went well except for 2 things......
#1 being that the overdrive decided to have the weekend off, so I drove about 3/4's of the journey in 4th. I expect it'll probably be an electrical issue....one of the wires loose, perhaps.
#2 is that ever since I've had this car, its had a severe clutch shudder. BUT only when the car is hot, fully warmed up. Its worse in reverse, being the lowest gear, and not quite so bad in 1st.
This car has all new-ish engine mounts, the tail-shaft centre bearing thing is in good shape and the rear trailing arms have all be re-bushed. A few years ago, (less than 5,000 kms ago) because of this clutch shudder, we removed the gearbox and found that it had a smaller, probably 1500 or Herald clutch in it. We replaced it with the correct, quality, clutch kit (cant remember its name) from James Paddock.
So you can see that nothing has made a difference and its now driving me nuts. This little car looks the goods. It drives, steers handles and stops very well. My wife and I love it, enjoy taking it to shows like today's and talking to people about it who recognise it for being an unusual vehicle here, down under.
BUT.....this shuddering is very annoying (& embarrassing) and before I resort to torching the car, can someone suggest what might be causing the problem.
Could it be worn bearings in the gearbox? I know very little about gearboxes (....well, I know enough to leave working on them to someone else) but its a thought I had today, while I was driving home slowly, thanks to no OD.
I hope someone can shed some light on this for me.
Thanks & Cheers,
Rob

[gmsclassics]

No overdrive can also result if the gearbox oil level drops. Most likely electrical wiring though, I've had to rewire mine, but the switches, both the top gearlever (the wire can rub and short) and the one on top of the gearbox itself have all failed over the course of time. Wire attached to the solenoid is in a vulnerable position.

With regard to clutch, I've always had the flywheel and clutch balanced when fitting a replacement. Maybe that is the next step?

Geoff

[D16PJM]

have you checked the donut on the prob, when mine went it was worse when warm and in reverse.

Pete

[sprint95m]

Quite a few things can cause this type of shuddering but,
based on my experience of Triumphs, you need a whole new clutch Rob.
I have encountered this on three different Triumphs, the shuddering only being present after a run.



Ian.

[Sundowner]

Gentlemen,
Thanks for taking the time to answer.

I find it interesting that no one suggested that maybe it was a slugged out gearbox bearing. I guess that's good news.

Ian,
The car had this shuddering problem when I bought it. That, along with an obvious clutch operation problem, was why we replaced the clutch. As I mentioned in my first post, we found a completely wrong clutch in the car and replaced it with a brand new and correct clutch and pressure plate which didn't fix the problem and has only done low mileage since. Its such a $#^%@*& to remove the gearbox, and I'm so arthritic, that I really don't want to go down that route again......unless I absolutely have to.

Pete,
We've checked the donut on the prop shaft many times and it checks out fine.

Geoff,
When we replaced the clutch we had the flywheel re-faced. Thanks for the advice on the wiring.

When I got back yesterday, I just parked the Sprint in the shed and walked away from it.....I'm so tired of it and the problem.
However, later today....or maybe tomorrow, I'll put it up on stands and climb back underneath AGAIN to see whats what.

Again,
'Thank You' all for your advice. Its much appreciated.

Cheers,
Rob

[tony g]

Not mentioned yet is the gearbox mounting (unless you include that in the engine mounts). An oil sodden box mount will give the vibration. Loss off oil causing O/D to stop? If so the box mount may have soaked it up causing both problems.

Tony

[Sundowner]

Thanks Tony.
The gearbox mount is also new and is quite dry.
Cheers,
Rob

[Carledo]

Not mentioned yet is the gearbox mounting (unless you include that in the engine mounts). An oil sodden box mount will give the vibration. Loss off oil causing O/D to stop? If so the box mount may have soaked it up causing both problems.

Tony

I'm with Tony on this one and along with a soggy knackered mount, i'll add the possibility of a ultra hard modern repro mount which can also cause all sorts of nasty vibrations and judders. See "Galileo"s thread on fitting a Volvo mount instead, all of us in the UK are now wise to this upgrade, i've fitted several myself for customers and it works well!

I'd also like to draw your attention to the propshaft, both the condition and smooth operation of the UJs (take the ends off and wobble them around to make sure they have the full range of movement) and the rather eccentric mounting position of the centre bearing, which is Sprint specific, where one side sits above the plate holding it to the body and one side below. This is, I believe, done to take the prop OUT of perfect alignment with the gearbox tailshaft, a situation which produces unwanted harmonics in the prop.

One final thought, clutch judder is USUALLY a result of oil getting onto the clutch (or faulty parts) I'm not saying this is the case here, with the care that has obviously been taken, but is it possible you've changed out the clutch without fixing a minor leak which has immediately contaminated the new clutch so the problem effectively persists?

Steve

[Sundowner]

Hi Steve,
Thanks for answering.
I remember that when I bought the car....8 or 9 years ago now, it had this shuddering problem. Back then, the gearbox mount (rear engine mount) was really soft from being oil soaked. Being new to these cars I had no idea that the Indian made replacements had the consistency of a house brick and bought and installed one. Its still in there. Its dry and the shuddering has persisted the entire time....but only after a good long run when everything is hot. After reading the thread on the Volvo mount, I bought one and its still in its box stored away. I didn't use it because the change in mounts made no difference to the shuddering, but I will look at making the mods and getting it on the car now.

I'll have a closer look at that centre prop shaft bearing as I wasn't aware that it needed to be mounted the way you've described.

I was with my mechanic mate when we changed the clutch over and I remember that the whole area was quite dry.
But if this was the cause of the shuddering shouldn't it happen when cold too?

Again, Thanks for your advice.
I've always been impressed with this forum and the fellows who frequent it.
Cheers,
Rob

[Matt Cotton]

My 1500HL suffers with exactly the same issues as you describe Rob.

I've changed mounts, including the modified Volvo mount (which did help and is far more forgiving than new 'repro' versions), changed clutch recently (no signs of oil contamination) I also swapped the flywheel with a proven replacement.
The gearbox has been re-built (the reason for taking it all out).

Initially I thought the problem was solved, but having done a good few miles over this weekend, once hot it started juddering again - perhaps not as bad as before, but really annoying nonetheless. As you say, only when hot.

It is very common however, but does detract from the enjoyment somewhat...

[Ministrone]

I had this problem when I bought my sprint. After rebuilding the prop shaft, new engine mounts, refaced flywheel and new clutch the problem only went away when I dropped the sump and corrected the crankshaft end float. The movement in the crank was causing the clutch to move back and forth when the pedal was pressed.

[Sundowner]

Gentlemen,

Thank you all for such a comprehensive look at what might be the problem here.

However, after sleeping on it, I've decided that I'm going to ignore it.
I have very clear memories of removing the gearbox when we changed the clutch, and to do so again, I need to rely on friends. One who owns a hoist and the other who (unlike myself) actually knows what he's doing. All 3 of us suffer from arthritis to varying degrees and I really don't want to put them, or myself, through that painful process again. No doubt this decision will be easily scoffed at by younger, flexible, fit and strong blokes. Considering that it only occurs after a longish run, and the car usually only does short runs, I can adjust my tiny brain to accept that the problem is always going to be there.

I can, and will, fix the OD problem.

The photo attached shows the offending item.

Again, thank you for your advice, suggestions and stories. I really appreciate it.

All the best,
Rob

[NickMorgan]

You have a lovely looking Sprint there Sundowner, so it is a shame that the clutch problem is spoiling your enjoyment. I was following this thread with interest as my Toledo has a similar problem and my solution is the same as you - I just don't tend to go for long runs!
Strangely, my every-day car, A Honda CR-V, has the opposite problem. The clutch has juddered when the engine is cold and particularly on damp days. It resolves itself as soon as the engine warms up. Frustratingly the dealer never got to the bottom of the issue, as the car was always warm by the time I had driven it there!!

[RodR]

Did you replace the rear axle tie bar bushes at the same time as the trailing arm bushes? I had a sprint years ago with a judder in reverse and first that was due to the axle moving around on take up as the bushes were shot.

[Mad Mart]

Did you replace the rear axle tie bar bushes at the same time as the trailing arm bushes? I had a sprint years ago with a judder in reverse and first that was due to the axle moving around on take up as the bushes were shot.

That was my first thought but then I noticed he said it only juddered when it was hot. Worn bushes would make it judder all the time.