The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

I might be needing to get to get a new wiring harness and was wondering if the 1850 and the sprint ones are the same.

steve

If both cars are the same age, then yes.
However there were changes over the years.

Off the top of my head....
Early 1850 is unique (these have grey rubber connector blocks)
Sprint and 1850 from 1973 until 76 (rocker hazard light switch)
Sprint and 1850 from 1976 until 1979 (pull/push hazard lights switch)
Sprint and 1850 for 1980 (fog lights added)



Ian

I've made a middle period 1850 loom fit an early Sprint, some obvious differences (the hazard switch doesn't matter as its in the dash subloom) but nothing that can't be sorted by careful matching. The worst was a difference that wasn't obvious (or expected) in the pin out of the plug that goes to the auto inhibit/ o/d/reverse switch loom not matching meaning, the car wouldn't crank over! But I sussed it eventually by tracking the wiring colour codes more carefully.

It would be a lot harder to make an OHV loom fit a slant or vice versa or a curved dash loom fit a plank dash car (i've done this last one too, took a big effort) Nothing is impossible but some swaps are easier than others!

As always, a wiring diagram for both donor and recipient is a big help, as is a good knowledge of Lucas colour code recognition!

Steve

Carledo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:55 pm I've made a middle period 1850 loom fit an early Sprint, some obvious differences (the hazard switch doesn't matter as its in the dash subloom) but nothing that can't be sorted by careful matching. The worst was a difference that wasn't obvious (or expected) in the pin out of the plug that goes to the auto inhibit/ o/d/reverse switch loom not matching meaning, the car wouldn't crank over! But I sussed it eventually by tracking the wiring colour codes more carefully.

It would be a lot harder to make an OHV loom fit a slant or vice versa or a curved dash loom fit a plank dash car (i've done this last one too, took a big effort) Nothing is impossible but some swaps are easier than others!

As always, a wiring diagram for both donor and recipient is a big help, as is a good knowledge of Lucas colour code recognition!

Steve

I got a 1500HL loom to work with a Sprint engine. It is not so hard, you just take it out, pull it apart and put everything on the right side. Then tape it back together.

cleverusername wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:59 pm

Carledo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:55 pm I've made a middle period 1850 loom fit an early Sprint, some obvious differences (the hazard switch doesn't matter as its in the dash subloom) but nothing that can't be sorted by careful matching. The worst was a difference that wasn't obvious (or expected) in the pin out of the plug that goes to the auto inhibit/ o/d/reverse switch loom not matching meaning, the car wouldn't crank over! But I sussed it eventually by tracking the wiring colour codes more carefully.

It would be a lot harder to make an OHV loom fit a slant or vice versa or a curved dash loom fit a plank dash car (i've done this last one too, took a big effort) Nothing is impossible but some swaps are easier than others!

As always, a wiring diagram for both donor and recipient is a big help, as is a good knowledge of Lucas colour code recognition!

Steve

I got a 1500HL loom to work with a Sprint engine. It is not so hard, you just take it out, pull it apart and put everything on the right side. Then tape it back together.

True, but it's a lot easier to START with a slant loom where everything is already on the correct side!

Steve

A Dolomite harness can be repaired or modified easily. New or used one. The one below is from a fellow UK Dolomite owner and the halogen conversion/new wires will be in the exisiting harness with the relays inside the car. The wiring is modified for fitting a Roose radiator and fan also with the relay inside the car behind the dash. The ballast ignition system is modified and instead of the starter contact the 12v feed during starting will be through a seperate relay. A 12v ignition feed is added next to the coil so in the future an electronic ignition is easy to connect. The wiring is split up in more groups and will accept a Lucas 4 fuse fusebox. One extra fuse for the fan and the ignition fed items have two instead of one fuse.

Damaged wires are replaced and the starter inhibitor loop will be removed and a new wire will be fitted from the starter switch connector directly to the starter as his car is a manual. All will be taped again using Lucas type tape and in this case the overall look will be like original. This is a good used harness but this kind of mods I also do on new harnesses when extra spots are wanted or when an alternator will be used instead of a generator.

Steve (Carledo) is in quarantaine I believe and I think he can do such modifications in short time. When you are not desperately in need you can send a harness to me.

Jeroen

I'm not in quarantine yet Jeroen but I am "social distancing" and can do repairs/mods/relay harnesses if need be at home, subject in some cases to parts supply! But I have fairly good stocks of most stuff needed and all the equipment is already at home.

PS Boris has tonight put us all in the UK on total lockdown, but it appears the postal services are continuing to operate, at least for the time being!

Steve

Cheers for the replies guys, the reason for my question is that my son is wanting to things with his 2door Toledo but not sure which way yet other than keeping it triumph, most recently the talk has been of a TR7 engine on a sprint gearbox and rear axle also with the curved dash, this seems at the moment the way he wants to go but it could change as conversations like this sometimes do.

Also if this is done where does the car stand in the tax and mot exemption ?

thanks again for your imput

steve

Steve28 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:03 am Cheers for the replies guys, the reason for my question is that my son is wanting to things with his 2door Toledo but not sure which way yet other than keeping it triumph, most recently the talk has been of a TR7 engine on a sprint gearbox and rear axle also with the curved dash, this seems at the moment the way he wants to go but it could change as conversations like this sometimes do.

Also if this is done where does the car stand in the tax and mot exemption ?

thanks again for your imput

steve

One thing to be careful of the legal implications, which I'm afraid are a bit a dog's breakfast rules wise. For MOT exemption, as far as I understand it, you have to follow these rules https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... idance.pdf

Now that at first seems to block any modifications but there is some leeway. basically you are allowed to change the engine to one which was used by that model when it was in production. Now that kind of depends if a Toledo is counted to be the same as a Dolomite. It would rule out a TR7 engine but if a Toledo is classed as a Dolomite it could have an 1850/Sprint engine.

Now for tax purposes, I believe the car just has to be 40 years old but I think you need to avoid a q plate, which means the point system https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration ... d-vehicles.

Just make sure you don't change too much and you will be fine. The final issue is insurance, insurance companies tend to charge more for modified cars, so I would get a few quotes before starting the build. To make sure you son can afford the insurance.

As his proposed mods, they should work. He will need a new subframe or mod his original subframe. So if he wants a project go for it. He should bare in mind that he is unlikely to get his money back at the end, it will probably be worth no more than a standard car.

cleverusername wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:44 am

Steve28 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:03 am Cheers for the replies guys, the reason for my question is that my son is wanting to things with his 2door Toledo but not sure which way yet other than keeping it triumph, most recently the talk has been of a TR7 engine on a sprint gearbox and rear axle also with the curved dash, this seems at the moment the way he wants to go but it could change as conversations like this sometimes do.

Also if this is done where does the car stand in the tax and mot exemption ?

thanks again for your imput

steve

One thing to be careful of the legal implications, which I'm afraid are a bit a dog's breakfast rules wise. For MOT exemption, as far as I understand it, you have to follow these rules https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... idance.pdf

Now that at first seems to block any modifications but there is some leeway. basically you are allowed to change the engine to one which was used by that model when it was in production. Now that kind of depends if a Toledo is counted to be the same as a Dolomite. It would rule out a TR7 engine but if a Toledo is classed as a Dolomite it could have an 1850/Sprint engine.

Now for tax purposes, I believe the car just has to be 40 years old but I think you need to avoid a q plate, which means the point system https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration ... d-vehicles.

Just make sure you don't change too much and you will be fine. The final issue is insurance, insurance companies tend to charge more for modified cars, so I would get a few quotes before starting the build. To make sure you son can afford the insurance.

As his proposed mods, they should work. He will need a new subframe or mod his original subframe. So if he wants a project go for it. He should bare in mind that he is unlikely to get his money back at the end, it will probably be worth no more than a standard car.

Nothing is set in concrete just yet its just this idea is the latest we have talked about, im aware of the subframe change and propshaft etc,
regarding the Q plate shouldn't that be the case with most of our cars as a large amount will of had them change over the years, the toledo has got a different engine and gearbox from the original and i think the front subframe has been changed, we have also had to change the rear axle.
Lastly he has no intention of selling it as it was the first car he had which i bought and gave it to him as his first car after we built it up together having been off the road around 20 years so its not about the money but the bond he has with the car.

steve

Steve28 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:15 pm

cleverusername wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:44 am

Steve28 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:03 am Cheers for the replies guys, the reason for my question is that my son is wanting to things with his 2door Toledo but not sure which way yet other than keeping it triumph, most recently the talk has been of a TR7 engine on a sprint gearbox and rear axle also with the curved dash, this seems at the moment the way he wants to go but it could change as conversations like this sometimes do.

Also if this is done where does the car stand in the tax and mot exemption ?

thanks again for your imput

steve

One thing to be careful of the legal implications, which I'm afraid are a bit a dog's breakfast rules wise. For MOT exemption, as far as I understand it, you have to follow these rules https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... idance.pdf

Now that at first seems to block any modifications but there is some leeway. basically you are allowed to change the engine to one which was used by that model when it was in production. Now that kind of depends if a Toledo is counted to be the same as a Dolomite. It would rule out a TR7 engine but if a Toledo is classed as a Dolomite it could have an 1850/Sprint engine.

Now for tax purposes, I believe the car just has to be 40 years old but I think you need to avoid a q plate, which means the point system https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration ... d-vehicles.

Just make sure you don't change too much and you will be fine. The final issue is insurance, insurance companies tend to charge more for modified cars, so I would get a few quotes before starting the build. To make sure you son can afford the insurance.

As his proposed mods, they should work. He will need a new subframe or mod his original subframe. So if he wants a project go for it. He should bare in mind that he is unlikely to get his money back at the end, it will probably be worth no more than a standard car.

Nothing is set in concrete just yet its just this idea is the latest we have talked about, im aware of the subframe change and propshaft etc,
regarding the Q plate shouldn't that be the case with most of our cars as a large amount will of had them change over the years, the toledo has got a different engine and gearbox from the original and i think the front subframe has been changed, we have also had to change the rear axle.
Lastly he has no intention of selling it as it was the first car he had which i bought and gave it to him as his first car after we built it up together having been off the road around 20 years so its not about the money but the bond he has with the car.

steve

I don't think the DVLA cares if people are replacing like for like. I think the rules are there to stop somebody dodging the IVA by using the identity of an old car but virtually non of the original components.

As the owner/builder of a far more radical 2 door than that proposed, I can give you the following advice. You are absolutely fine putting a TR7 engine, Sprint subframe, gearbox and rear axle in as regards the 8 point rule/identity retention and historic tax is concerned. The car would still have a minimum of 9 points, (shell 5, suspension 2, steering 2) even on the strictest possible interpretation of the rules. If you allow for "model family sharing" then it gets the full 16 points (subtract 1 point for the TR7 motor which was never used in any Dolomite model if you're being really fussy)

MOT exemption is a bit more of a grey area, not as cut and dried as the DVLA's 8 point rule. What the MOT regs say is "substantially changed" which is particularly aimed at larger or uprated powerplants. Seeing as the TR7 lump is 50% larger in capacity with almost twice the power output of the original 1300, i'd be inclined to regard the conversion as a "substantial change", even though it's done with all Triumph kit and closely mimics a similar model in the Dolomite range and get it MOT'd regardless, as I do with the Carledo (1998cc/140bhp) Quite apart from my preference for getting my cars tested regardless of any immunity, which is, IMO, a big mistake by government agencies which will eventually come back to bite them! But that's another soapbox to stand on entirely!

Incidentally, I put the Carledo on the road in 2011, years before it became tax exempt or MOT exempt (if it was liable for MOT exemption at all, which is dubious) And i've continued to get it MOT'd every year since. But this means that whenever the tax rolls round for renewal, the car is already MOT'd so I never even get ASKED the question of whether it is exempt or not. It's my firm policy to never give a give a govt agency information that may later be used against me when they, inevitably, move the goalposts! I'd advise anyone in a similar position to do likewise!

Steve

PS, Classicline or someone similar recently quoted me £165 for the Carledo insurance, fully comp, agreed value of £6k and all mods declared. But i'm 65 with a favourable rural postcode!

I also can't agree with the person who suggested that a Toledo "ruined" in this fashion is worth the same or less than a similar condition standard car. Available data (which I track closely from obvious interest) from the few completed projects of this type offered for sale (and sold) seems to indicate an approximate value around double or more that of a similar condition standard car! So go for it and good luck! It makes a fun vehicle!

Carledo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:53 pm
Incidentally, I put the Carledo on the road in 2011, years before it became tax exempt or MOT exempt (if it was liable for MOT exemption at all, which is dubious) And i've continued to get it MOT'd every year since. But this means that whenever the tax rolls round for renewal, the car is already MOT'd so I never even get ASKED the question of whether it is exempt or not. It's my firm policy to never give a give a govt agency information that may later be used against me when they, inevitably, move the goalposts! I'd advise anyone in a similar position to do likewise!

I agree with giving minimal information to the government, just stay the right side of the law. I take the opposite policy with insurance, don't want to give them any get out if I need them to payout.

I also can't agree with the person who suggested that a Toledo "ruined" in this fashion is worth the same or less than a similar condition standard car. Available data (which I track closely from obvious interest) from the few completed projects of this type offered for sale (and sold) seems to indicate an approximate value around double or more that of a similar condition standard car! So go for it and good luck! It makes a fun vehicle!

I didn't mention anything about ruined, I just said that you are unlikely to get your money back. A genuine Sprint is worth more than a Dolomite that has been Sprinted, for example. Also you can't base values on asking prices. Ebay is a good place to see this, since you can find out what cars sold for. Many cars have ambitious asking prices but either don't sell or go for far less.

I can understand why that would be the case. I would be willing to buy a car you had modified because based on your contributions here, you know what you are doing. A car modified by someone I didn't know, I would be far more wary. I would have less concern if it was merely an upgrade to similar spec of the same model.

However if it was a modification that involved an engine never used in that car and other non-standard parts, I would be cautious. I would have no idea whether they were a competent welder, for example, so how would I know if modified mountings for components were secure. Then there are issues like weight distribution, have they properly adjusted the suspension to take into account the weight of the new engine? The further from standard spec you take a car, the more skill you need to do it properly.

So I can see why people can be wary of modded cars. You do need a bit of expertise or someone to advise you that has such knowledge, to buy such a vehicle.

All being well.

They may be a Sprint wiring harness when my Sprint modifications get done.

But it ain’t going to be soon.

cleverusername wrote: ↑Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:27 am

Carledo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:53 pm
Incidentally, I put the Carledo on the road in 2011, years before it became tax exempt or MOT exempt (if it was liable for MOT exemption at all, which is dubious) And i've continued to get it MOT'd every year since. But this means that whenever the tax rolls round for renewal, the car is already MOT'd so I never even get ASKED the question of whether it is exempt or not. It's my firm policy to never give a give a govt agency information that may later be used against me when they, inevitably, move the goalposts! I'd advise anyone in a similar position to do likewise!

I agree with giving minimal information to the government, just stay the right side of the law. I take the opposite policy with insurance, don't want to give them any get out if I need them to payout.

I also can't agree with the person who suggested that a Toledo "ruined" in this fashion is worth the same or less than a similar condition standard car. Available data (which I track closely from obvious interest) from the few completed projects of this type offered for sale (and sold) seems to indicate an approximate value around double or more that of a similar condition standard car! So go for it and good luck! It makes a fun vehicle!

I didn't mention anything about ruined, I just said that you are unlikely to get your money back. A genuine Sprint is worth more than a Dolomite that has been Sprinted, for example. Also you can't base values on asking prices. Ebay is a good place to see this, since you can find out what cars sold for. Many cars have ambitious asking prices but either don't sell or go for far less.

I can understand why that would be the case. I would be willing to buy a car you had modified because based on your contributions here, you know what you are doing. A car modified by someone I didn't know, I would be far more wary. I would have less concern if it was merely an upgrade to similar spec of the same model.

However if it was a modification that involved an engine never used in that car and other non-standard parts, I would be cautious. I would have no idea whether they were a competent welder, for example, so how would I know if modified mountings for components were secure. Then there are issues like weight distribution, have they properly adjusted the suspension to take into account the weight of the new engine? The further from standard spec you take a car, the more skill you need to do it properly.

So I can see why people can be wary of modded cars. You do need a bit of expertise or someone to advise you that has such knowledge, to buy such a vehicle.

I used the word "ruined" in parenthesis and a large dose of irony! People like me are often approached by the "rivet counters" at shows and suchlike to be told "you've ruined that mate!" It's become a standing joke in the modding fraternity, look on Retro Rides forum, there's a whole thread devoted to the subject with many pictures of "ruined" cars!

There are 2 levels of mod involved here, the "all Triumph" lower level proposed by the OP here is a pure bolt in conversion that anyone with a decent toolkit and a bit of savvy can achieve in not much more than a long weekend, then there is the "full Monty" job that nutcases like me indulge in which can take anything from a couple of months to many years to get right! And yes, if you are thinking of buying something in the latter category, a thorough in depth inspection is a good idea as you don't know what bodges have been perpetrated or how fast and loose the builder has played with the 8 point rule (ESPECIALLY THIS!)

But of the few that come on the market (only 3 that I can recall in the last 5 years or so) in running, driving condition, Martin Bellinger's excellent Redtop powered car made £6.5k, 5 or 6 years ago, A green Sprinted 2 door with EFi from an XR3i or similar made £4.2k and needed work to get roadworthy, that was about 4 years back and, most recently, the lovely Honeysuckle Honda S2000 powered 2 door made around £9k in the last year or so. I've turned down £6k for the Carledo in the last year, even though it's now getting tatty from constant use. Because it's a proven and reliable car. (quick too!) A tidy stock 2 door will struggle to make more than a "real world" £3k at todays prices, though i've seen a few optimists asking £5k or more, these cars don't appear to have sold. The relative rarity of the 2 door cars doesn't seem to have impinged on their percieved value, where the modified cars sell on the quality and performance of the mods, the "fun factor" which is a completely different marketplace.

I agree that a Sprinted 1500 or 1850 like yours is worth less than a "proper" Sprint (ie a car with a Sprint logbook) this is fair IMO. Modifying a "real" Sprint as I have done with the Dolomega is probably a bit of a mugs game too. Not that it is ever likely to be sold whilst i'm still breathing, but my guess is that it's value, to the right buyer, would be little, if any, more than a comparable standard Sprint auto, with the "fun factor" merely making up for the value lost in modding a rare Sprint. But in a relatively much smaller martketplace. HOWEVER, that would still be higher than if i'd done the same conversion into a 1500, so, in a way, i'm still ahead!

I'm with you on insurance, declare EVERYTHING and take your lumps, then they CAN'T stiff you if you are unfortunate enough to have a prang!

Steve