Holley Carb Kickdown Cable

[pfg49]

I'm new to the forum, and have joined as I've just bought a Dolomite with an SD1 engine and GM 180 auto box. As you can see from the pictures, the kick down is disconnected, and should go in the hole, (I think!) above the ball joint on the kick down rod. As there is only a small amount of movement in the kick down rod, that isn't going to work, see picture 2. I'm not an autobox man, and I can't see how this is ever going to work given the large movement of anything attached to the throttle pivot and the small movement of the kick down rod. Any ideas please?

[dollyman]

Hi, welcome to the forum. Was it disconnected when you bought the car?

Tony.

[Carledo]

Since the original box on the SD1 was a BW65 and the original carb was a pair of SUs, you are pretty much on your own with this.

The Borg Warner box uses a cable operated kickdown which has a very long travel, but only the last half inch actually DOES anything.

If the GM kickdown is rod operated throughout and only has minimal travel to engage it, you'd have to fab some sort of bracket to support the kickdown rod in such a position that the lug on top of the throttle link only contacts the end of the kickdown rod at nearly full throttle, so no contact over most of the throttle range. Or perhaps fit a second throttle cable in tandem with the actual throttle cable that has a ton of slack built in, so it only pulls the kickdown at wide open throttle.

OR, thinking laterally and well outside the box (and ignoring any safety standards at all) you could divorce the kickdown from the throttle entirely and just organise a hand operated kickdown you can control with a knob or lever on the dash or steering column. You could even (advanced engineering here) activate the kickdown with an electric solenoid switch, activated by a push button on the steering wheel (like the NOS boys use!) Don't know how long the trans would suffer abuse like this but I have a lot of respect for American autoboxes, they're usually incredibly tough and long lived.

Steve

[pfg49]

Dollyman, it certainly was, I wonder why?

Carledo, I don't fancy the manomatic idea, auto boxes are supposed to be auto after all. However I could make a a bracket with a radiused slot in it, the centre of the radius being the centre of the throttle spindle, using the existing ball joint on the end of the rod. Or, I could weld something with a hole in it that allows the kick down rod to slide through it until the last bit where it pulls the rod. Eureka! Thanks for prompting me.

[dollyman]

Steve (Carledo) beat me to it But going the other way the amount of torque that engine kicks out... would you need it?? You could always just move the lever to drop into a lower gear. My Stag kickdown has been disconnected by myself, basically to stop me being a "hooligan"

Tony.

[Carledo]

Dollyman, it certainly was, I wonder why?

Carledo, I don't fancy the manomatic idea, auto boxes are supposed to be auto after all. However I could make a a bracket with a radiused slot in it, the centre of the radius being the centre of the throttle spindle, using the existing ball joint on the end of the rod. Or, I could weld something with a hole in it that allows the kick down rod to slide through it until the last bit where it pulls the rod. Eureka! Thanks for prompting me.

It was probably left unconnected by the builder cos working out how to make it work was a bridge too far for him!

If I had the CAR in front of me instead of a couple of pics, I could probably think of half a dozen ways of engineering it, but I see your brain works like mine so I shan't bother, like the radiused slot method, though I fancy you'll need a return spring to stop it possibly jamming in kickdown.

Having thought of it, i'm now getting fascinated by the idea of an electro/manual kickdown override, you could use it, not only for overtaking or similar power-on situations, but also to provide engine braking and downshifts into corners making the box more flexible and driveable! It would probably be simplicity itself to introduce to my own auto in the Dolomega, which already has a fly-by-wire throttle with the kickdown function incorporated into the pedal mounted throttle potentiometer. Find the "kickdown" wires and parallel the circuit through a push button, seemples!

Don't know about the GM box, but the BW box uses the kickdown in lower rev ranges to subtly alter shift speeds so disconnecting it is NOT a good idea, it will ALWAYS shift at 8 and 15mph (if memory serves) the minimum shift points. Though this probably doesn't matter too much if you have torque to burn!

TBH, The bit I can't quite get my head round is WHY the builder chose the GM trans when the BW box is everywhere in the UK and cheap as chips, only thing I can posit is a size/length issue, but even THAT doesn't hold up when you know, as I do, that auto Dolomites had the exact same BW65 automatic trans as was fitted to SD1 V8s! Maybe the Rover engine had a previous career in a 60s Buick? (The Rover V8, if you didn't know, was derived from a late 50s Buick design)

Steve

[Carledo]

Steve (Carledo) beat me to it But going the other way the amount of torque that engine kicks out... would you need it?? You could always just move the lever to drop into a lower gear. My Stag kickdown has been disconnected by myself, basically to stop me being a "hooligan"

Tony.

Tony, your thinking defeats me! Why have a fast car and not drive it fast?

Puzzled of Shropshire

[new to this]

I'm new to the forum, and have joined as I've just bought a Dolomite with an SD1 engine and GM 180 auto box. As you can see from the pictures, the kick down is disconnected, and should go in the hole, (I think!) above the ball joint on the kick down rod. As there is only a small amount of movement in the kick down rod, that isn't going to work, see picture 2. I'm not an autobox man, and I can't see how this is ever going to work given the large movement of anything attached to the throttle pivot and the small movement of the kick down rod. Any ideas please?

Is the ball and socket meant to fit the hole in the 2nd picture ? can you weld if so weld the hole up and redrill to fit the ball and socket , if you cant weld go to an engineering shop to have a coupling made up to fit the hole in mech and the ball and socket

Dave

[new to this]

Steve (Carledo) beat me to it But going the other way the amount of torque that engine kicks out... would you need it?? You could always just move the lever to drop into a lower gear. My Stag kickdown has been disconnected by myself, basically to stop me being a "hooligan"

Tony.

Tony

I thought i read on the Stag forum it was bad for the gearbox to run without the kickdown cable connected ?

Dave

[dollyman]

Steve (Carledo) beat me to it But going the other way the amount of torque that engine kicks out... would you need it?? You could always just move the lever to drop into a lower gear. My Stag kickdown has been disconnected by myself, basically to stop me being a "hooligan"

Tony.

Tony, your thinking defeats me! Why have a fast car and not drive it fast?

Puzzled of Shropshire

Dear puzzled of Shropshire, i am not a very good fit in the car Steve Due to severe back problems, so my left foot ends up at the back of the brake pedal. There is a lot more room in my Dolly auto I tend to use my 2500S for the fast stuff.

Tony.

[dollyman]

Steve (Carledo) beat me to it But going the other way the amount of torque that engine kicks out... would you need it?? You could always just move the lever to drop into a lower gear. My Stag kickdown has been disconnected by myself, basically to stop me being a "hooligan"

Tony.

Tony

I thought i read on the Stag forum it was bad for the gearbox to run without the kickdown cable connected ?

Dave

Hi Dave, i don't go on the SOC forum so not heard that. I can't see what would cause any problems? But i will always be corrected The problem i had was it would not change into 3rd until it was doing around 55mph. Also when doing 70mph just a touch of the throttle it would change down I tried 3 or 4 times to adjust it correctly and had the same problem each time. If it does cause damage to the box disconnecting it could you let me know? I don't have the problem on my other 2.

Tony.

[Carledo]

Steve (Carledo) beat me to it But going the other way the amount of torque that engine kicks out... would you need it?? You could always just move the lever to drop into a lower gear. My Stag kickdown has been disconnected by myself, basically to stop me being a "hooligan"

Tony.

Tony

I thought i read on the Stag forum it was bad for the gearbox to run without the kickdown cable connected ?

Dave

Hi Dave, i don't go on the SOC forum so not heard that. I can't see what would cause any problems? But i will always be corrected The problem i had was it would not change into 3rd until it was doing around 55mph. Also when doing 70mph just a touch of the throttle it would change down I tried 3 or 4 times to adjust it correctly and had the same problem each time. If it does cause damage to the box disconnecting it could you let me know? I don't have the problem on my other 2.

Tony.

As I said above, besides the actual "kickdown" function the cable adjusts the shift speeds according to throttle position, the more throttle applied (short of kickdown) the higher speeds the box shifts at. Without the cable connected it will permanently shift at the idle/creep throttle setting of 8mph (1st to 2nd) and 15mph (2nd to 3rd) The symptoms your box displays are usually attributable to an overadjusted (too tight) kickdown cable. Try adjusting it so it is SO slack the kickdown doesn't work at all, then adjust up a tiny bit at a time till it JUST does with your foot buried in the carpet. It's a more empirical method than the one in the manual (from what I remember, haven't read one in years, at least, not a Triumph one) but it works for me!

As to damaging the box, I know it's possible for the bottom end of the cable to slip out of it's yoke and flail around in the works if not held under slight tension at the top. Any other damage possibilities, you'd have to ask Harvey, he's forgotten more about BW boxes than i'll ever know!

Steve

[dollyman]

I will try your way Steve as i only adjusted it via what the manual said It makes sense what you say. I have had very little to do with auto's in my career as sadly most of my work was fleet, so no more than 3 years old mainly. Boring but the money was good.

Tony.

[dollyman]

Steve (Carledo) beat me to it But going the other way the amount of torque that engine kicks out... would you need it?? You could always just move the lever to drop into a lower gear. My Stag kickdown has been disconnected by myself, basically to stop me being a "hooligan"

Tony.

Tony

I thought i read on the Stag forum it was bad for the gearbox to run without the kickdown cable connected ?

Dave

I have had a look around the SOC forum and can't find anything about the cable, but i will try Steve's method

Tony.

[harvey]

The Borg Warner box uses a cable operated kickdown which has a very long travel, but only the last half inch actually DOES anything.

That's not true. The last half inch of travel is the bit that operates the kickdown, but all the travel before that raises the internal line pressure to match the throttle opening, without that (say if the cable was disconnected) you are running idle speed line pressure all the way through the range, and that will give slip and judder under wide throttle openings, because there isn't enough pressure to properly clamp the clutches.