Early Toledo front drum to disc conversion

[Bunji]

My 72 Toledo came with a set of front discs and a servo (see attached photo) from a later model Tolly.

Obviously they are in need of a good clean up, but I'm looking at swapping the drums over to these.

How involved is the swap?

Am I missing any parts (other than the obvious hoses)?

Cheers,
Ben

[Carledo]

I believe the brake hoses are different and you will probably need to drill and tap the inlet manifold for the servo vac hose adaptor.

I've done this conversion myself, it's just a bolt on. I actually had a correct vac manifold handy, so didn't even need to lift a drill!

Steve

[AndyThomas]

Its just a bolt on job but the rear brake cylinders will need changing as they are a smaller bore on the Dolomite with disc brakes.

[Bunji]

Its just a bolt on job but the rear brake cylinders will need changing as they are a smaller bore on the Dolomite with disc brakes.

Looking at the manual it appears the front disc models, have self adjusting rear drums. Do you mean the replacing with the cylinders used for these?

[cliftyhanger]

Its just a bolt on job but the rear brake cylinders will need changing as they are a smaller bore on the Dolomite with disc brakes.

Looking at the manual it appears the front disc models, have self adjusting rear drums. Do you mean the replacing with the cylinders used for these?

My toledo came with discs and manual rear adjusters. But I have no idea if the discs were a retro fit. But I also think the smaller engine cars were manual adjusters anyway?

[DoloWIGHTY]

As far as I'm aware all Toledos (and the "Mk2" Dolomite 1300) only came with manual adjusting handbrake.

[Carledo]

As far as I'm aware all Toledos (and the "Mk2" Dolomite 1300) only came with manual adjusting rear brakes.

This is definitely true for UK market (1300cc ONLY) cars ^^^^^

Whether export/CKD/NZ assembled had anything different (you could get a 1500cc Toledo in NZ and other export markets) I'm not sure.

When I converted an early 1300 from front drum to disc/servo, I did precisely nothing to the rear brakes and it still stopped much better than with drums and no servo. So basically I wouldn't sweat about it! But if you are that fussy, just swap in the rear cylinders from a disc braked Toledo/Dolomite 1300 as these still had manual adjustment.

Steve

[DoloWIGHTY]

Just checked my Factory Graphic Catalogue for Toledo and it shows non-self adjusting rear brakes for both home market and export Toledo cars.

However, there is an exception. For cars with front disc brakes and tandem brakes (I never knew there was such a thing on a Toledo) it did have (or proposed to have) self adjusting brakes to the rear. (see the attached plate).

[2door-toledo]

I've got a 71 car with drum brakes all around and no servo/booster. This is a refurbished master cylinder with stainless insert, NOS Girling front cylinders and reproduction rear wheel cylinders. NOS shoes all around.

The brakes are good and the pedal is light. I don't actually see what I would gain with a change to front disks + servo.

You may find that if you refurbish your current set up it would be adequate, bearing in mind that your "new" parts look like they need a considerable amount of work.

[Bunji]

I've got a 71 car with drum brakes all around and no servo/booster. This is a refurbished master cylinder with stainless insert, NOS Girling front cylinders and reproduction rear wheel cylinders. NOS shoes all around.

The brakes are good and the pedal is light. I don't actually see what I would gain with a change to front disks + servo.

You may find that if you refurbish your current set up it would be adequate, bearing in mind that your "new" parts look like they need a considerable amount of work.

Thanks Chris. I have gone back and forth on the disc swap idea a couple of times. My pedal is quite firm with not a lot of travel. Have decided to go through the 4 wheel drum setup and assess the state of everything as you may well be right that sticking to drums is for the best. Especially given NZ rules I will need to get a compliance cert done for a disc swap.

[2door-toledo]

I hope you get them working well. I was extremely impressed with how well drums without a servo can work. Just don't be tempted to put the reproduction Brake Engineering wheel cylinders that Rimmers sell. These are rubbish and leak. I got NOS Girling ones from eBay and these don't leak.

[Bunji]

I hope you get them working well. I was extremely impressed with how well drums without a servo can work. Just don't be tempted to put the reproduction Brake Engineering wheel cylinders that Rimmers sell. These are rubbish and leak. I got NOS Girling ones from eBay and these don't leak.

Thanks, I was looking at those for the rear drums, rather than resleeving the originals. That info helps to make the decision.

[GinettaG15]

is there is a real benefit on the small engined cars to convert from drums to discs...i doubt it....

the noticable benefit is most likely caused by the complete overhaul of the brake-system during the conversion.

so if somebody would invest the same effort in refubshing its drum-system he would also see a before-after difference.

what i could think about is to install a (remote-) servo to the drum-braked cars.

if somebody is converting the car to discs and leaves the rear (larger bore) cylinders the brake balance is shifted towards the rear which can lock the rear earlier than the front (under heavy or emergency braking)...and this is dangerous!!

this said, using a larger bore rear cylinder keeping the master cylinder with the same bore, may result in a longer pedal travel.

apropos Master: if i would convert a car or refurb the brake system, my first focus would be to use a tandem-master instead a single-circuit master....THIS is a huge improvement for safety, especially as the nowadays cylindes or gaskets are often of questionable quality. if your single-cicuit master fails you have no brakes at all....zero, nothing.....with 0 brake-pressure even the shiny discs are useless

[Bunji]

is there is a real benefit on the small engined cars to convert from drums to discs...i doubt it....

the noticable benefit is most likely caused by the complete overhaul of the brake-system during the conversion.

so if somebody would invest the same effort in refubshing its drum-system he would also see a before-after difference.

what i could think about is to install a (remote-) servo to the drum-braked cars.

if somebody is converting the car to discs and leaves the rear (larger bore) cylinders the brake balance is shifted towards the rear which can lock the rear earlier than the front (under heavy or emergency braking)...and this is dangerous!!

this said, using a larger bore rear cylinder keeping the master cylinder with the same bore, may result in a longer pedal travel.

apropos Master: if i would convert a car or refurb the brake system, my first focus would be to use a tandem-master instead a single-circuit master....THIS is a huge improvement for safety, especially as the nowadays cylindes or gaskets are often of questionable quality. if your single-cicuit master fails you have no brakes at all....zero, nothing.....with 0 brake-pressure even the shiny discs are useless

Do you know of a tandem master cylinder that suits the 4 wheel drum setup?

[Robert 352]

I think the advice given about overhauling the brake system is sound but I cannot accept that fitting a tandem-master is going to be a huge improvement. It is complicating a relatively simple system.

You have to ask why such systems were fitted in the first place. It had nothing to do with safety – directly. The systems were fitted for very few owners of vehicles were bothered, to check if they were loosing brake fluid, on a regular basis.

Bunji’s vehicle is subjected to a 6 monthly check for what we term a Warrant of Fitness. The inspectors in this country check very carefully for signs of potential brake failure. The first thing they check is the fluid level in the master cylinder. If it is low then they will check further for that indicates to them that the vehicle is likely to be poorly maintained. They also look at the flexible brake hoses very carefully and look elsewhere signs for brake fluid leakages.

I have always made a point of changing my brake fluid every 3 years for fresh fluid flushed through the system lessens the chance of a seal failing somewhere. And if Bunji is concerned about a catastrophic failure of one of the flexible rubber hoses then change them too. I expect he is doing that, as it seems to me that he is the sort of responsible vehicle owner who carries out checks on a regular basis.