Should I get Project NWL's shell dipped?
Re: Should I get Project NWL's shell dipped?
Speaking to people it does seem that dipping is a 'fashionable' restoration process at the moment.
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Karlos
Re: Should I get Project NWL's shell dipped?
Maybe the answer can possibly be found in what result of the process you are looking for James, not the result of the restoration as a whole?
Is it paint removal, rust removal or both you want to achieve? I don't know which process would be best fit, I am guessing the dipping process removes rust also?
Would it be of any benefit to have it done before anymore body work repairs are done? Theres no point filling any imperfections before blasting unless you intend to use lead-but that is a very dark art!
It also sounds that the solution used for dipping is very aggressive also and will remove any filler and expose previous repairs.
Not much help I know, just more questions...
If it was me I would blast/dip the shell now to expose all the imperfections and then rebuild the body from that point.
Is it paint removal, rust removal or both you want to achieve? I don't know which process would be best fit, I am guessing the dipping process removes rust also?
Would it be of any benefit to have it done before anymore body work repairs are done? Theres no point filling any imperfections before blasting unless you intend to use lead-but that is a very dark art!
It also sounds that the solution used for dipping is very aggressive also and will remove any filler and expose previous repairs.
Not much help I know, just more questions...
If it was me I would blast/dip the shell now to expose all the imperfections and then rebuild the body from that point.
Re: Should I get Project NWL's shell dipped?
Thats a good point, yes I'll be doing this before any more repairs on the car.
What I'd like to achieve from the process - remove the paint to see if there are any hidden repairs that need to be tidied up or made good like the rear wheel arch. Also to remove any external surface rust to make repairs easier.
What I'd like to achieve from the restoration - To make the body better than it was when it left the factory, quality cavity rust protection (I was looking at bilt hamber's Dynax S50), painted and sealed underside inc wheel arches, and reinforced areas that needed reinforcing (bulkhead for instance).
Soda blasting looks like it would be a good solution.
What I'd like to achieve from the process - remove the paint to see if there are any hidden repairs that need to be tidied up or made good like the rear wheel arch. Also to remove any external surface rust to make repairs easier.
What I'd like to achieve from the restoration - To make the body better than it was when it left the factory, quality cavity rust protection (I was looking at bilt hamber's Dynax S50), painted and sealed underside inc wheel arches, and reinforced areas that needed reinforcing (bulkhead for instance).
Soda blasting looks like it would be a good solution.
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Robert 352
- Guest contributor
- Posts: 389
- Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:08 am
- Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Re: Should I get Project NWL's shell dipped?
James
I suspect that you are going to get a number of quite differing opinions on the subject, some based on comment they have received from elsewhere and some based on personal experience. I have found MikeyB’s comments above very interesting.
I have had no direct experience at all in using an acid dip to strip paint off a complete car body so you will have to treat my comment as some of the former – that is comment from elsewhere which in my case is from some of the most experienced car restorers in this part of the world.
I am part of a group which undertakes the restoration of older cars which is done under the guidance – and support of some of the top, local, car restoration experts, all carried out at the local Polytechnic where we have access to an extremely wide range of both modern and older equipment as well as the knowledge of some very experienced tutors.
Acid dipping was a topic which was dwelt on in some detail only a few days ago as a door from a Mini was taken apart, as a demonstration, and in order to deal with the rust that generally forms in the bottom of the doors – as it had done on the Mini.
Stripping the paint off a “flat” panel on its own, that is a panel that has not been incorporated into some fabricated assembly such as a complete door, might well be carried out successfully by something like an acid strip but, in this part of the world it would certainly not be used for the complete door assembly and nor therefore for a complete body assembly.
The reasons given were quite simple. Two panels are often joined in a manner where they are lapped together and then spot welded along the lapped “seam”. The example we examined was where the outer door panel was folded back over the frame that constitutes the door itself. If you acid strip the whole door the question was asked “how can you guarantee that the solution used for neutralising the acid penetrates those lapped joints and neutralises any acid which might have penetrated those joints”. The answer is you cannot guarantee that this would have happened, not unless you disassemble the door completely. A task which none of us are likely to undertake. It is for that reason that companies restoring very high value cars do not acid dip.
The company undertaking the acid dipping might well, in the case of local experience, offer some form of guarantee but the experience gained here was that in one case after a matter of years when rust appeared along the lapped joint/seam it was argued that there was no way of “proving” that it was because of some residual acid left behind from the dipping operation. The owner of the vehicle then faced another substantial bill to remove and repair the rust and repaint the vehicle.
I now use a combination of a (low speed) disc sander for removing the paint on the flat exterior surfaces which when the spider like rust patterns which appear under the normally good looking painted surfaces appear I then sand blast with a low pressure gravity gun and a fine glass grit to remove the rust in the rust pattern pitted areas and the exposed surfaces are then painted with a good epoxy primer.
This is similar to the technique which I used when I had my car restored. I stripped all the paint off with paint stripper and I had a professional company shot blast all the pillars, inside the engine bay and boot, indeed everywhere where it was not possible to strip the paint by hand. The bare metal exposed by the shot blasting was primed before the car left the shot blasting company.
Robert
I suspect that you are going to get a number of quite differing opinions on the subject, some based on comment they have received from elsewhere and some based on personal experience. I have found MikeyB’s comments above very interesting.
I have had no direct experience at all in using an acid dip to strip paint off a complete car body so you will have to treat my comment as some of the former – that is comment from elsewhere which in my case is from some of the most experienced car restorers in this part of the world.
I am part of a group which undertakes the restoration of older cars which is done under the guidance – and support of some of the top, local, car restoration experts, all carried out at the local Polytechnic where we have access to an extremely wide range of both modern and older equipment as well as the knowledge of some very experienced tutors.
Acid dipping was a topic which was dwelt on in some detail only a few days ago as a door from a Mini was taken apart, as a demonstration, and in order to deal with the rust that generally forms in the bottom of the doors – as it had done on the Mini.
Stripping the paint off a “flat” panel on its own, that is a panel that has not been incorporated into some fabricated assembly such as a complete door, might well be carried out successfully by something like an acid strip but, in this part of the world it would certainly not be used for the complete door assembly and nor therefore for a complete body assembly.
The reasons given were quite simple. Two panels are often joined in a manner where they are lapped together and then spot welded along the lapped “seam”. The example we examined was where the outer door panel was folded back over the frame that constitutes the door itself. If you acid strip the whole door the question was asked “how can you guarantee that the solution used for neutralising the acid penetrates those lapped joints and neutralises any acid which might have penetrated those joints”. The answer is you cannot guarantee that this would have happened, not unless you disassemble the door completely. A task which none of us are likely to undertake. It is for that reason that companies restoring very high value cars do not acid dip.
The company undertaking the acid dipping might well, in the case of local experience, offer some form of guarantee but the experience gained here was that in one case after a matter of years when rust appeared along the lapped joint/seam it was argued that there was no way of “proving” that it was because of some residual acid left behind from the dipping operation. The owner of the vehicle then faced another substantial bill to remove and repair the rust and repaint the vehicle.
I now use a combination of a (low speed) disc sander for removing the paint on the flat exterior surfaces which when the spider like rust patterns which appear under the normally good looking painted surfaces appear I then sand blast with a low pressure gravity gun and a fine glass grit to remove the rust in the rust pattern pitted areas and the exposed surfaces are then painted with a good epoxy primer.
This is similar to the technique which I used when I had my car restored. I stripped all the paint off with paint stripper and I had a professional company shot blast all the pillars, inside the engine bay and boot, indeed everywhere where it was not possible to strip the paint by hand. The bare metal exposed by the shot blasting was primed before the car left the shot blasting company.
Robert
Re: Should I get Project NWL's shell dipped?
I had my race car project shell stripped by Prostrip. I would not do it again.
This is the third restoration I have done, my Sprint is well known in the club and has won best Sprint several times at TDCIR and I have also been lucky enough to be awarded numerous concours awards with it elsewhere. The Sprint restoration is now 19 years old and it is still winning prizes. I have also restored a Stag which won the Stag Owners Club National concours on a two ocassions and was recognised (before I sold it) to be one of the best in the country.
Both these cars were media blasted.
Media blasting is much cheaper than stripping, about £500 compared with £3000 and upwards. There are lots of issues with stripping which you don't get with media blasting.
I would rather not go into details, of my stripping experience (if you pardon the pun!) in a public forum, but would be happy to share my experience with anyone by PM.
Paul.
This is the third restoration I have done, my Sprint is well known in the club and has won best Sprint several times at TDCIR and I have also been lucky enough to be awarded numerous concours awards with it elsewhere. The Sprint restoration is now 19 years old and it is still winning prizes. I have also restored a Stag which won the Stag Owners Club National concours on a two ocassions and was recognised (before I sold it) to be one of the best in the country.
Both these cars were media blasted.
Media blasting is much cheaper than stripping, about £500 compared with £3000 and upwards. There are lots of issues with stripping which you don't get with media blasting.
I would rather not go into details, of my stripping experience (if you pardon the pun!) in a public forum, but would be happy to share my experience with anyone by PM.
Paul.
Re: Should I get Project NWL's shell dipped?
Thanks Paul and thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, it has been really useful and I hope if someone is considering doing the same thing then it can pop up in a search and help them.
I have decided to go down the soda blasting route as I really don't think I have bad rust in areas that I can't access. All box sections will be treated to a generous helping of Bilt Hamber Dynax S 50.
I have decided to go down the soda blasting route as I really don't think I have bad rust in areas that I can't access. All box sections will be treated to a generous helping of Bilt Hamber Dynax S 50.
Re: Should I get Project NWL's shell dipped?
Bit late but here's my 2p anyway. Bollocks to values.
Were it me I'd want to use the thing without being paranoid. Get your before & after logistics sorted and you cannot beat the chemistry of dipping. Modern cars do it but they have their logistics impeccably sorted. Get a carcoon and a bottle of argon in the back of a Luton van to pick it up with perhaps. Get it home, indoors and coated with zinc rich primer within 24 hours including having a selection of cavity lances ready and waiting for it. Bonda will keep the rust out, 2 coats did on bare metal on Amandas mini for 2+ years outside in the rain while the rain free underside coated with some expensive brands had to be re-done. Zinc rich primer will work even better on top of a good coat of science.
The suspension turrets of my GT6 were dipped and coated by SPL, they were clean enough inside and out to eat your dinner off. I painted them with Bonda including using a cavity lance as soon as I got them back. My GT6 chassis was soda blasted from the bulkhead forward. I doubt it will ever be free of media.
Were it me I'd fabricate a protection frame from steel box section with fork lift tubes and corner lifting eyes to bolt the doors into and another for the bonnet & boot. The extra mass will push the cost up a small fraction but SPLs handling reputation isn't perfect. I don't know about the shell, I'd want to do same for that. A frame under the body with forklift tubes would be sensible. Extending that to a full surrounding frame with corner lifting points might be excessive.
Were it me I'd want to use the thing without being paranoid. Get your before & after logistics sorted and you cannot beat the chemistry of dipping. Modern cars do it but they have their logistics impeccably sorted. Get a carcoon and a bottle of argon in the back of a Luton van to pick it up with perhaps. Get it home, indoors and coated with zinc rich primer within 24 hours including having a selection of cavity lances ready and waiting for it. Bonda will keep the rust out, 2 coats did on bare metal on Amandas mini for 2+ years outside in the rain while the rain free underside coated with some expensive brands had to be re-done. Zinc rich primer will work even better on top of a good coat of science.
The suspension turrets of my GT6 were dipped and coated by SPL, they were clean enough inside and out to eat your dinner off. I painted them with Bonda including using a cavity lance as soon as I got them back. My GT6 chassis was soda blasted from the bulkhead forward. I doubt it will ever be free of media.
Were it me I'd fabricate a protection frame from steel box section with fork lift tubes and corner lifting eyes to bolt the doors into and another for the bonnet & boot. The extra mass will push the cost up a small fraction but SPLs handling reputation isn't perfect. I don't know about the shell, I'd want to do same for that. A frame under the body with forklift tubes would be sensible. Extending that to a full surrounding frame with corner lifting points might be excessive.
1978 Pageant Sprint - the rustomite, 1972 Spitfire IV - sprintfire project, 1968 Valencia GT6 II - little Blue, 1980 Vermillion 1500HL - resting. 1974 Sienna 1500TC, Mrs Weevils big brown.
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Robert 352
- Guest contributor
- Posts: 389
- Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:08 am
- Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Avoid the use of Zinc surface treatments before welding
Each to their own methods!
I would not recommend the use of a zinc based or zinc rich primer on bare metal if you are intending to follow up and either heat shrink the metal to remove any dents or if you are intending to weld in repair patches.
It is a real pain and not all that good for one’s health welding something that is either galvanised or coated with some sort of zinc coating.
Use an epoxy primer for a good quality epoxy primer is considered to be 100% waterproof whereas most (if not all) other primer systems and for that matter the older topcoat paint systems are/were certainly not water proof.
A wax polish was traditionally used on painted and chrome surfaces, to seal and stop water penetrating the paintwork and chrome and starting the process of rusting.
Epoxy primers are a perfectly satisfactory and, down here the most recommended way of prepping bare metals for subsequent painting.
I use a product called Kephos on bare metal which in our climate is perfectly satisfactory as a base preparation before I undertake any work. I then carry out the necessary repairs before coating with an epoxy primer.
I would not recommend the use of a zinc based or zinc rich primer on bare metal if you are intending to follow up and either heat shrink the metal to remove any dents or if you are intending to weld in repair patches.
It is a real pain and not all that good for one’s health welding something that is either galvanised or coated with some sort of zinc coating.
Use an epoxy primer for a good quality epoxy primer is considered to be 100% waterproof whereas most (if not all) other primer systems and for that matter the older topcoat paint systems are/were certainly not water proof.
A wax polish was traditionally used on painted and chrome surfaces, to seal and stop water penetrating the paintwork and chrome and starting the process of rusting.
Epoxy primers are a perfectly satisfactory and, down here the most recommended way of prepping bare metals for subsequent painting.
I use a product called Kephos on bare metal which in our climate is perfectly satisfactory as a base preparation before I undertake any work. I then carry out the necessary repairs before coating with an epoxy primer.
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robrow
Re: Should I get Project NWL's shell dipped?
I am in favour of full shell treatements where possible. So much better if you can start from a true blank canvass.
The best service I have found is Paintstrip/Ribble Technology at Preston, Lancs.
John the owner is very knowledgable and has put a lot of time into researching methods.
For a full shell, they heat strip the shell to bare metal, then treat with phosphoric acid, then neutralise it with a phosphate solution, before baking it again. This phosphates the shell inside and out and protects it.
At this stage I normally do and welding, repairs and mods to the metalwork, before returning to Ribble Tech for a powder prime.
Well worth it enquiring if you are serious about this process.
The best service I have found is Paintstrip/Ribble Technology at Preston, Lancs.
John the owner is very knowledgable and has put a lot of time into researching methods.
For a full shell, they heat strip the shell to bare metal, then treat with phosphoric acid, then neutralise it with a phosphate solution, before baking it again. This phosphates the shell inside and out and protects it.
At this stage I normally do and welding, repairs and mods to the metalwork, before returning to Ribble Tech for a powder prime.
Well worth it enquiring if you are serious about this process.