Starting troubles

[HQentity]

Hi all!

Just thought I'd check to see if anyone has any ideas? I've been having trouble starting my car lately, whenever I turn the key, I can usually hear the solenoid clicking in on ignition, but nothing else happens. I've checked the loom and battery terminals, look okay to me, although one of the terminals looks a little worn.

I replaced both the spade connections on the loom to the solenoid and cleaned up the battery and engine earth points. I had the starter motor off (what a nightmare that is to get to!) and soldered the solenoid connections which improved the problem greatly for a few days, but its worked its way back again, making me think it was more the removing that did good. I've just bought a £20 starter motor off eBay, figured it would be worth a go, any other suggestions though?

Many thanks!!

EDIT: while I'm at it, how on 'earth' do you use a multimeter?! I know how to select the various settings, but I don't know what I've gained from learning the resistance/current/volts? The battery reads 12.6v, and most connections/earths read below 0.1 Ohms which all seems alright to me?!

[Galileo]

As you can hear the solenoid clicking when you turn the key, could be worn out starter brushes or armature, but that would be pretty permanent rather than intermittent and you tend to know it's happening as starting gets progressively sluggish. If you have the headlights on and turn the key to start, apart from the solenoid clicking do the headlights dim? Obviously a friend or darkness is useful to do that!

With your multimeter, and that same friend from above (but not The Darkness, and I don't mean Justin Hawkins either), check both points on the back of the starter:

Dolomite 1850 Starter test points.jpg (28.49 KiB) Viewed 2669 times

Get them to turn the key and the bottom terminal should read 12v, if it doesn't then you most likely have a sticking solenoid.

As to multimeter use, resistance checking can be useful, but looking for a voltage drop when checking for poor connections can be easier to do on a car. Check the voltage at the battery and then at the suspect location, and note the voltage differences. A large difference would suggest a poor connection somewhere causing a resistance, the infamous 'bad earth'* being an example. Once you have it narrowed down, swapping to resistance would help, high the ohms, worse the connection. Current checking, in my opinion, is not that useful as most meters only do up to 10amps, but it can be useful if you're chasing an illusive battery drain.

Hope that helps, and doesn't just confuse!


*I miss the days of an impromptu disco light show at traffic lights as the Ford Escort MK3 in front brakes and put its indicators on...

[sprint95m]

I've been having trouble starting my car lately, whenever I turn the key, I can usually hear the solenoid clicking in on ignition, but nothing else happens.

This is very familiar to me Kyle.

In the 90s when running a Sprint I twice had the solenoid repaired.
The third time I opted to buy a proper new solenoid (which you could do back then).

On my current early 1850 I am on to the third or fourth starter (I have lost count).
The last one was a NOS.
The starters were all okay when cold but played up when the engine was hot.


I am sure the starter's close proximity to the exhaust causes early failure,
(T2000s use basically the same starters and these last and last, the exhaust is hardly as close on 2000s)
so I have covered the exhaust manifold in heat wrap.




Jeroen has a permanent solution using lightweight components,
may be worth contacting him for more info….?
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=30809&p=288031&hili ... er#p288031


Ian.

[HQentity]

Thanks very much for all the help you two!!

I might try swapping out the solenoid and seeing what happens then! I'll have a good poke about with the multimeter too.

As regards the heat from the exhaust, I can very much imagine that causing trouble. I still have the heat shield in place but I recon i might heat wrap the exhaust too like you said. Great help as always, thank you!

[Jon Tilson]

Your starter is displaying fairly common late life problems.

It could be either a burned solenoid end cap....the contact buttons just get burned out through years of carrying a high current.

A new solenoid or a replacement end cap will cure this.

Or you could have worn brushes. These will make contact on some points and not on others. This will also cause a bit of arcing which is not good
for the armature, and it also makes the solenoid work harder as you attempt multiple starts and just get a click.

This design of starter lasts a finite number of starts. Mechanical wear is impossible to avoid. How long it takes you to get to that number of starts
depends on your useage. There is also a distribution of starters - some are better than others.

A multimeter is not a lot of use in these situations...it does tell you if you get battery volts at both solenoid terminals, but as you have found a cleanup slightly improves things that probably weren't that bad to start with. The usual bad connection on the solenoid is for the ballast bypass ignition feed, about which I've written reams eslewhere.

You should be seeing 13.2V on a fully charged lead acid accumulator at 20 C. Yours is reading close enough but may be slightly dishcharged.
You want to see the same reading at the starter as you do at the battery terminals. If there is a difference you need to clean some contacts.

A discharged battery or bad engine earth connection will mean a slow turning starter.

You can get your old starter reconditioned with new brushes, an armature clean up on a lathe and new solenoid end cap contacts. I used to pay about 45 quid for this but its been a while since I used the old boy who did this for me.

Jonners

[AlanH]

I've had this problem ever since I had the car.

The motor has been checked and I've had a new solenoid. All of the connections have been cleaned (a few times) but the problem is still there.

It only seems to happen when the engine is hot and I find that rapid turns of the key usually gets me through it.

However I have seen this :-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triumph-Stag- ... Sw2XFUjGCY

Since Stag engines are basically a double 1850 I wonder if its relevent. I'm not quite sure how it works. Could anybody offer a more considered opinion?

I am going to bring this up with Yorkshire Triumphs when I pick my car up.

[Jon Tilson]

Try a new ignition switch....

I have a p6 and that has a relay. It had a bad earth for a while so I used to run with it shorted out until I sorted the earth out.

Jonners

[HQentity]

If you have the headlights on and turn the key to start, apart from the solenoid clicking do the headlights dim? Obviously a friend or darkness is useful to do that!

This morning on the way to work I had time to check this, and the headlights do indeed dim, which I'm assuming means the solenoid is sufficiently draining on the battery?!

[Galileo]

Going to assume that you've checked the battery condition, and that the terminals are tight, in which case I'm leaning to a worn brush or a sticking one being a good candidate. My thinking on that is when you knocked the starter about when removing it, and then put it back it then worked for a bit. You could try giving it a tap with a mallet on the side of the big cylinder towards the back of the casing to see if it knocks it back into place for a bit.

Highly unlikely to be the ignition switch, if it was you would not get power to the solenoid for it to click. Replacement bush kits are cheap and common as, looking to pay five to ten pounds.

Great video from an American called John Twist with a cool backstory of coming to work for an MG garage in the UK called University Motors, Hanwell in 1972 before returning to America and setting up his own business. Lots of detail, and obviously he's an MG man but it's Lucas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf82vFQc410

[AlanH]

Re. My post above, I decided to ask Tony Hart about this.

This is what I asked :

I have this problem on an 1850 dolomite.
Would this relay cure it?

This is his reply:

It should cure your problem, the starter motor uses the same style solenoid.
Regards Tony.

[Jon Tilson]

Tony likes to sell stuff...

No dolomite was ever fitted with one...some switches last a lifetime and some need replacement...

If your switch already has burned contacts I doubt driving a relay will be any better. If it had a relay in the first place it may not have got burned contacts. There is no easy answer to this....

Jonners

[MIG Wielder]

It is interesting that the MGB has the same starter motor as the Dolomite. Yet you never hear of the click-er-click-er-click symptom on those cars. And why not ?
Because the MGB has a Lucas 6RA relay between the "start" position on the ignition switch and the solenoid. B.L. simply cost reduced the Dolomite by deleting the relay and driving the solenoid directly.
And its a lot of current !
12/0.25 ohms + 12/.76 ohms = 64A !
So even 0.1 ohms of loop resistance is going to stop it working. ( 0.1 ohms x 64A = 6.4 V and we only have 12 to start with ).
So with the Dolomite solenoid wiring going from the battery to that multi-way crimp connector, around to the Ignition / starter switch through the starter contacts and then all the way back to the starter 0.1 ohms is going to mount up quite quickly. ( Don't forget the dodgy contacts on the auto; inhibitor switch or loop ).
And one reason that the problem is more likely to occur with a hot engine is because the temperature coefficient of resistance of copper wire is large !
I did see that in-line relay mod; but I wonder if it actually "fits" the Dolomite ?
The wires to the solenoid don't look long enough. Its on the n/s of the engine.
I would always fuse the solenoid supply with a 70A "Megafuse". Solenoids do go faulty.
I would also like to see a spec; for the relay. Even a 40A Halfords one would not be good to use here. And quality relays are not cheap.
I would say that if you have the click-er-click-er symptom then do clean all the connections, then wire a relay in circuit, then go for new starters / solenoids . Personally I just fitted one of Rimmers hi-torque starters.
No problems since !
HTH,
Tony.

[AlanH]

I've got an auto, so, as Tony says, the problem is possibly worse.

Suitable Relays do not not look too expensive
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-LUCAS ... 1806565261
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100-AMP-Relay ... 1806565261

This one is really cheap and it's from that well known and trusted supplier Zhong Tong
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Car-Auto-Truc ... SwxYxUuISl

[Jon Tilson]

I don't think the Dolomite wiring was so much "cost reduced" as "model evolved" from the 1300...and heraldry.

With pre engaged starter motors being a relatively new "improvement" over the older bendix type I suspect the abingdon boys
thought they ought to do something when the B series engine got the newer starter, while the Canley lads were a bit more circumspect.

Dolomite wiring has and always will be one of the car's major weaknesses. I mean 2 fuses? - tells you all you need to know.

Jonners

[geeksteve]

I mean 2 fuses? - tells you all you need to know.

And it'll run without either..