Urgent water pump question (I should call this car Christine)

[James467]

Mark, my suggestion is that you speak to Rob at Sprintspeed. I'm pretty sure he has one on his racing Sprint, as he races it with Shaun I would take the way he has plumbed it as the correct way. He also does a bracket to mount the pump to.

http://www.sprintspeed.co.uk/pages/

[James467]

https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... hp?t=19821

[Carledo]

All

I just greatly appreciate your prompt feedback, thank you so much.

I still haven't driven the car yet but will do so asap and see what the results are. Meantime the feedback is great and I have also spoken with DC pumps and got some other feedback outside this thread.

So, various :

1. understand from DC that
- issue of connectors through bulkhead now minimised by it being detachable. one concern down
- fitting of inline temp sender for controller is threaded into adapter that needs to go in top pipe. second concern down; no need to somehow literally inset into hose !
- issue of heater cct can be resolved with second pump although I'm not necessarily a fan of bothering with that at least for now. Part suggested has inlet and outlet at right angles and its hard to understand where you might fit that in the bypass cct. Also not clear how one would energise this given Dolly heating is mech lever for valve. But I'm not clear either on how you would return heater cct back to bottom pipe ahead of pump and actually make that union a) at all b) leak-proof
- pump doesn't really need a bracket at all and especially in our case where any weight is effectively suspended by hose directly beneath thermo housing
- made suggestion that alloy body might be a preferred option and certainly sounds more attractive than nylon

2. Am not clear why bypass cct goes through inlet manifold. Suggested that its actually to heat it not cool it as I had assumed but this is not part of weber manifold anyway so wtf

3. Any pics of fitting, locations, cable runs, fusebox works etc certainly appreciated

4. Am currently of view that I will go with DC combo kit (ie incl controller), probably the larger capacity alloy one, no mounting bracket, bung in old cavity obviously, no thermostat as DC advise, new pipe and O ring thermo housing to manifold and no attention to heater cct (unless compelling info is forthcoming gents)

5. Carledo - the bespoke brass bypass of which you speak. What is this? The pipe between thermo housing and manifold? Why just a pinhole, as supplied its just a short pipe?? Also the warning light you talk about - that's to warn you of what? .. pump fail? overtemp...? ??? ??

My view of going this route is that it truly doesn't sound that hard to do and if I have to take all the apart anyway I'd rather repair with a better solution less likely to leak and much easier to repair in the future if the need arises. And it's likely to be cheaper than a new mech pump

Nearly there I think. Any further thoughts on above or photos much appreciated. I don't have time to learn during the job so much therefore trying to meticulously plan so that it goes as smoothly as possible

cheers mark

The bypass pipe is one that I found on the car when I changed out the seals on it that were leaking, whether it's a DC part or bespoke by another source I know not. It replaces the factory bypass tube that goes between the inlet manifold and the top of the original water pump top cover in the original, its just a 19mm ish diameter tube, but the one on this car has one that, though it is still 19mm ish in OD, has a built in restrictor that shuts the bore down to maybe 4 mm max. My inference is that it's to faciliate air to rise up through the engine to the filler plug when filling the system with coolant, thus avoiding airlocks. Others i've seen just blank off the holes where this pipe fits.

The warning light is run from 2 wires exiting the controller plug and may be an option, on this car you can't easily see the control unit and it's tell tale lights (it's on the parcel tray down beside the steering column) the light is, i think, just to reassure you that the system is functioning! you can't hear or see the pump running, the only way you'd find out otherwise that it ISN'T, is when the guage needle pegs on the hot stop!

I've taken some pics for you, but my phone is throwing one of it's periodic wobblers and refusing to talk to my computer! You'll know i've sorted it when the pics appear!

HTH, Steve

[olr159w]

Thanks all

Am in direct repeated contact with Rob, he is one of the other sources of info away from this thread

I will need to get a new little bypass tube and O rings. And a manifold gasket. Beyod that hopefully the whole manifold and carb assy can come off as one.

Ian - appreciate you obviously had a really bad experience. I have done many google searches and peak problems seem to be way in the past. A lot of what I found was evidence of great customer service. I have also taken a look through the installation instructions and when used as an auxiliary pump then yes, drill holes in the thermostat. But when used in their recommended manner they very clearly advise removing the water pump and thermostat, putting the EWP in the bottom rad hose, thermal sensor in top hose and whole thing run by controller

cheers

[olr159w]

Also this.

Attached is view under carbs towards rear of engine.

That pipe union you see is where the bypass connects back into the rearward end of the inlet manifold. Do you reckon this is some type of compression fitting? I can’t find any reference to an O ring or a gasket or anything?

I'd need to get underneath to loosen but reckon its worth trying that to save disassembling carbs from manifold etc.
ie have whole assy come off together

But I need to make sure I have necessary parts to refit - manifold gasket, water pump gasket, tube and O rings - which leaves this

thks

mark

[soe8m]

There are people who have std waterpumps functional for over 200.000km and towing caravans to Italy at 35 degrees over the Brenner pass without trouble. Some people had two sprint race cars with genuine 190hp at the rearwheels running for ten years around different racetracks all over Europe using std waterpumps without any trouble.

It's just understanding the slant's coolingsystem and how to put a pump together again the correct way with slightly more care than the factory did.

Using electric waterpumps is the same as connecting an extra lead from the left headlight to right headlicht when that stops working. With a little more effort you find the original cause and the right headlight will lighten the road the original way again. No extra leads are needed creating another set of new problems by just leaving the original cause there with a chance of a shortcut creating a fire in future.

Just start at the bottom with all problems. Does it over heat? No? Then all you need is a new std. waterpump when it stay's leaking after some miles of driving. Your comment of that you don't buy that a pump can re seal even reading this many times should have you asking here why is it that a pump can seal after some miles running. Your comment of not buying that makes me wonder how much you really understand of the slant's coolingsytem and how much urgent help you really need.

Jeroen

[olr159w]

Yeah ok.

I don't understand your point here "Your comment of that you don't buy that a pump can re seal even reading this many times should have you asking here why is it that a pump can seal after some miles running. Your comment of not buying that makes me wonder how much you really understand of the slant's coolingsytem and how much urgent help you really need."

Sure the fundamental design does work. I have had my Sprint for about 30 years. I haven't touched the water pump for ages but I know from memory and from input and difficulty of the professional workshop that helped with its resto 20 years ago and from others here that the design is no great and generally a bit of a pain in the ass.

The renowned leaking slot and the huge amount of hardware you have to remove to attend to it. The peculiarities of the cooling system and the fact the factory knew it when they changed to 12 vane

With respect I find your headlight analogy quite ridiculous. People put electric fans on the car because they deem its an improvement. They could just as easily stay with the original viscous coupling and belt drive. I have. And there are any number of other things that people change because they consider it an improvement.

In my opinion an EWP is an improvement. But thats OK if your opinion is different.

As for your implication that I should understand why a pump seal should re-seal by itself ? Well go ahead an explain that and the likelihood of it happening. I get that it just might. I simply think its improbable thats all

I assume you are not a fan of EWPs then? ...just guessing.....

m

[James467]

Jeroen is dutch and his responses can sometimes be interpreted as quite direct, my wife is not english and she is the same!

Personally I have never had an issue with the standard pump, 12 or 6 vane. I am not really a fan of EWP's on standard cars, lots of faff, lots of plumbing and wiring/arguing with different people who dont understand cooling systems and how to plumb them correctly! As you have to remove all the hardware to remove the pump and install a bung on a standard car I just feel that you may as well just install a standard good quality pump. Car cooling systems are pretty complex and despite BL's reputation some very clever people would have designed it taking into account flow rates etc... and tampering with hose sizes etc... can just cause all manner of problems!

But....

It is your car and not mine

So, I would stick to the recommended install from DC, that way you are more likely to get better help from them. If it were me then I would use the controller, I just can't see why you wouldn't!

Am in direct repeated contact with Rob, he is one of the other sources of info away from this thread

Brilliant, Rob is definately your man for installation advice.

Do you reckon this is some type of compression fitting?

Yes, there is a compression olive in there. It should all unbolt from the inlet manifold, leaving a threaded hole, I cant remember the size but would suspect it is BSP. If you click on the photo below and zoom in you should be able to see it.

I will need to get a new little bypass tube and O rings. And a manifold gasket. Beyod that hopefully the whole manifold and carb assy can come off as one.

Yes, exactly, a couple of bolts are fiddly but it does come off. I like to build them on the bench and fit the whole assembly to the car, it makes fitting the carbs easier!




Steve,

The bypass pipe is one that I found on the car when I changed out the seals on it that were leaking, whether it's a DC part or bespoke by another source I know not. It replaces the factory bypass tube that goes between the inlet manifold and the top of the original water pump top cover in the original, its just a 19mm ish diameter tube, but the one on this car has one that, though it is still 19mm ish in OD, has a built in restrictor that shuts the bore down to maybe 4 mm max

It sounds like the restrictor is possibly there to regulate the flow of the fluid going into the heater side of the system when used with the EWP giving high flow and low flow sides to the cooling system. Which is why the heater inlet and outlet are a specific diameter to suit the engine. Trying to dig out my uni physics books, I swear I saw something on the flow rate of liquid vs efficent heat transfer somewhere, Tony is good at these things!

[sprint95m]

Mark, my suggestion is that you speak to Rob at Sprintspeed. I'm pretty sure he has one on his racing Sprint, as he races it with Shaun I would take the way he has plumbed it as the correct way. He also does a bracket to mount the pump to.

http://www.sprintspeed.co.uk/pages/

With respect James,
it is the controller that it is the issue rather than the pump.

There are millions of washing machines using they Panasonic electric pumps so clearly they do work.


I spoke at length to Neil Foreman about this issue, however he pointed out his knowledge was restricted to racing cars
(Lotus 7 replicas running motor bike engines)
where keeping them cool was the problem rather than getting them up to temperature!
They were running with no thermostat (so no bypass), just an electric cooling fan.
He hadn't sold a controller until I bought one.


thanks,

Ian.

[James467]

With respect Ian,
I have never seen en EWP system fitted to a road car without a controller.

There are millions of washing machines using they Panasonic electric pumps so clearly they do work.

er.... Ok, I dont think we doubted that the pumps werent working!

[soe8m]

Yeah ok.

I don't understand your point here "Your comment of that you don't buy that a pump can re seal even reading this many times should have you asking here why is it that a pump can seal after some miles running. Your comment of not buying that makes me wonder how much you really understand of the slant's coolingsytem and how much urgent help you really need."

Some people here on this forum never ask and are only here to share decent info. My experience is based on one million km's in different Dolomites over the years and the info I put on here is what I can tell. There a few more with a lot of real life Dolomite experience here who never ask but feel also the need to share the info they have to the ones who are in need or have a serious question.

When you say in the fist sentence in your post you have read the info put on here by different persons about re sealing and in the next sentence you don't buy that info then you belong on a Facebook page and not here. No respect belongs on a Facebook page and here you ask why can a pump re-seal as I did read a few did say here on this forum. I did quit all the Facebook pages as only sharing info was getting people in angry discussions and ending up taking advice from the most unexperienced people talking the most air. That's their choice and they will find out that their choosen advice doesn't work out but I lost interest and the need of sharing info those groups as more who did leave in the past.

You have heard from others that the slant cooling system alway's gives troubles you probably heard from Facebook or from people who also don't understand. There's nothing wrong with the std. cooling system and feel free to fit an EWP if you like. It's only not an improvement but only a modification. For daily use and using a heater it invloves a lot of plumbing pumps and controllers and that's sure not an improvement. Leaving the visco and fit an electric fan is an improvement as the engine gains about 7 hp at the rearwheels not dragging the fan with it all the time.

Suit yourself and take the advice you need or want but you can't say I don't believe what has been written here. Those discussions are for other groups and forums.

Jeroen

[sprint95m]

With respect Ian,
I have never seen en EWP system fitted to a road car without a controller.

Stewart EMP electric pumps don't use a controller.
Said pump is a replacement for the OE mechanical pump so is used with the OE thermostat.

They don't have a distributor in Europe but do ship orders worldwide from their base in the USA.



Ian.

[soe8m]

Both ewp systems can work but need some effort.

An ewp that just replaces the std pump without controller needs an extra external thermostat and the internal recirculation restored by more hoses and T connectors. The original thermostat can't be used and all the internal and external circulations have to be replicated by hoses outside the engine. That way you keep the internal recirculation and heater when the engine is warming up and a flow through the rad and heater when the engine is hot. This is because the std dual thermostat is doing this inside the engine and when taking the waterpump outside the engine all this has to be taken out the engine also to make things work.

An ewp with controller can work without the std thermostat and without an extra external thermostat. As the engine is cold the pump does not run and the engine heats up. No running pump is also no flow through the rad and coolant stationary inside the engine is the new recirculation system now. When the engine is hot the pump pumps the coolant through the engine and rad and all works almost fine. You have to close the internal recirculation permanently at this setup. Otherwise not all the coolant flows through the rad during hot but also through the internal circulation what will make the engine boil. Normally the std dual thermostat closes the internal circulation when hot but there's none fitted in this setup. The heater needs a second pump as when the engine is warming up, the main pump doesn't pump so there's no flow, also not through the heater. An extra take off is needed for the extra heater pump to circulate the stationary heated coolant from the engine through the heater. Then this will work fine.

Both can work, do cost some money, time and effort, have both 5 metres of waterhoses extra in the engine bay and don't help the engine cooling more than the std waterpump.

Both setups can make you say I have a modification. That's the plus side.

Jeroen

[olr159w]

Very patronising.

"You have heard from others that the slant cooling system alway's gives troubles you probably heard from Facebook or from people who also don't understand."

No, I've had the car for 30 years. They have a reputation for a non perfect cooling system that you can read about all over the place and which is verified by the mechanic I used to use in the UK who has almost made it his lifes work to attend to Triumphs.

I don't have a Facebook account and never will. I do have an engineering degree though.

And you are not reading what I'm saying "As for your implication that I should understand why a pump seal should re-seal by itself ? Well go ahead an explain that and the likelihood of it happening. I get that it just might. I simply think its improbable thats all"

So in case its hurting your feelings then no I'm not disbelieving you. I'm not saying it can't happen. I'm just saying that its unlikely and knowing how fate goes the probability of this conveniently fixing itself ahead of me wanting to use the car at my daughters wedding in two months is probably slim. But we'll find out soon enough because as soon as it stops raining here I'll be driving it around to see what happens. It would be fantastic if it re-sealed by itself so I hope you are correct.

Your last post is interesting because basically you are saying it doesn't work without "5 metres of waterhoses extra in the engine bay".

No one else has said this anywhere ever. The fitments I've seen photos of and the testimony provided separately outside this thread says the pump can sit between bottom rad hose and thermo housing, remove thermostat, add controller and temp sensor and it works just fine.

Can't both be right

This : "Both setups can make you say I have a modification. That's the plus side." Is that supposed to be sarcasm? Jeez. Do you think I'm looking into all this for a laugh or something or just so I can say its modified. FFS. I'd rather it was sorted, I could drive it and then concentrate on a heap of other wedding related issues instead.

But lets get back to the real topic instead

Of course now I'm heading back towards Square One because I'm wondering : if there isn't constant flow of some sort do you get hotspots and the engine boiling? The standard setup is not somehow magical - the water goes round the engine and then when it gets hot the thermostat opens and it goes around the radiator as well.

The problem I'm now imagining is that in the EWP set-up the water circulates in principle everywhere all the time because no thermostat. But it doesn't circulate at all until the pump comes on and the pump only comes on when the temp sensor in the top rad hose gets hot. By the time that happens through conduction - what other cause would get the top hose hot without circulation - what condition would the coolant in the engine be in? I can see it might be fine after the pump has first come on and water has circulated but before that?

I dunno now. Great. And the only other option is the crazy "twin seal cage almost guaranteed to leak from slot first time and you have to re do whole thing" replacement water pump for AUD$420

Not helping

[soe8m]

When cold there is an internal recirculation circuit open and the rad circuit is closed. When hot the internal circulation is closed and the rad circuit opened by a dual valve thermostat. Two operations of two valves in one thermostat.

Leaving the thermostat out makes the internal cicuit never closed so half the coolant goes through the rad and the other half getting hotter again directly into the engine skipping the rad.

So running an controller pump, what controls the temp by flow, you can't use the original thermostat. The internal circuit then has to be closed permanently to have all the coolant through the rad when hot. During warming up you maybe need a heater to demist so a second pump for the heater is necessary at new take off points.

Using a constant running pump as the original but then electrical outside the engine you have to fit an external thermostat and add and reroute some hoses to replicate and supply the internal circuit and main circuit and have a flow through the heater to demist.

Just fitring an external ewp, what system you choose doesn't make things work. You have close, reroute, use an external thermostat in one occasion etc.

A lot of work without any real improvement. All circuits are concentrated around the original waterpump and together with the dual valve thermostat makes it complicated to have it working properly with an external pump.

As for the waterpump sealing issue, the seal is plastic, the impeller cast iron. Some rust in between these two makes the plastic seal not sealing against the cast surface of the impeller. Driving a few miles does grind the rust of the surface where the plastic seal pushes against. It's a spring loaded seal. All clean again is a nice watertight seal.

A worn plastic seal won't seal again. A very pitted impeller surface will never seal again. When at reconditioning the impeller was machined flat again as it should and a new seal was fitted your pump will seal again and lives happily again. A good modification is a ceramic ring insert in the cast impeller. No rust possible between the seal and impeller as the plastic seals again the ceramic. This modification is the smartest to do.

As for the stories of overheating and shitty waterpumps these are just fairytales. When all is in a good condition and put together with care al works fine. There are a lot of old school mechanics that do it old school the wrong way for 50 years and I'm not scared to tell them. Take your advantage of it instead of hanging to 40 year old horror stories. I have two Allegros also. Never lost a wheel or a rearscreen....

Jeroen