1300/1500 engine

[soe8m]

My Dolomite 1300 did drop the axial bearings in the sump and I'm looking for a replacement engine.

I'm going to visit a trader soon and can pick an engine out of the 20+ he has.

What are the main differences in these engines? Is a Spitfire 1300 and/or 1500 the same? I would like to reuse the cilinderhead of my 1300 but putting it on a 1500 I wouldn't mind. The higher compression ratio I can use on LPG.

What I would like to know what does fit what and what not. When I find a good 1500 engine with a worn camshaft, would physically fit the 1300 one in that engine journal size wise? Differences in crankshafts? Does my Dolomite 1300 flywheel fit all 1300/1500 crankshafts?

Do manifolds fit on all heads when I can find a complete ready to fit 1300 or 1500 engine? I would like to retain the single carb.

So the main question is what do I have to look for to avoid bringing home an engine what just doesn't fit.

Jeroen

[yorkshire_spam]

This x-ref is useful for head+block combinations:
http://auskellian.com/paul/links_files/ ... sion_Ratio

1300 comes in 2 varieties - the early ones "small crank" have smaller main journals and are favored by people wanting high RPM engines. These engines also had bearings for the cam.
Later 1300s have the same larger journal size as the 1500
Summary of data I have :

[Carledo]

1500 is a stroker so the block is taller than on the 1300 and the conrods are longer. I'm pretty sure the headgasket and manifold gasket are interchangeable between 1300 and 1500. There are loads of heads, all with slightly different sized valves, different compression ratios etc, depending on year and model but just about any head will fit just about any block.

What i'd look for is a late 1300 (MkIV) Spitfire motor (Engine code FE?) which has a better cam in it and the biggest valves (though biggest is not much of an advantage, the differences are in 100ths of an inch)

The VERY best engine, if you can FIND one, is the so called "small crank" 1300 from a MkIII Spitfire (Engine code FD *****HE) this is the strongest and most forgiving of the 1300s, but people who have them generally know what they have and what they are worth!

Steve

[soe8m]

Got one today. A complete list of enginenumbers and interchangeable parts were not needed as there was a Dolomite 1300 engine laying around also. Not so common as most Dolomites here were 1850 and Sprint.

Jeroen

[cliftyhanger]

1500 is a stroker so the block is taller than on the 1300 and the conrods are longer. I'm pretty sure the headgasket and manifold gasket are interchangeable between 1300 and 1500. There are loads of heads, all with slightly different sized valves, different compression ratios etc, depending on year and model but just about any head will fit just about any block.

A few "corrections"
The blocks are identical on later 1300 and 1500.
The conrods between the large journal 1300 and 1500 are the same. The pistons and crank are different.
heads are interchangeable, though as jeroen notes, 1300 head on a 1500 short engine produces a nice high CR. Camshafts are interchangeable too on the large journal blocks.

Flywheels, I think on dolomite engines they are swappable, but earlier 1300 used smaller bolts.

[naskeet]

Got one today. A complete list of enginenumbers and interchangeable parts were not needed as there was a Dolomite 1300 engine laying around also. Not so common as most Dolomites here were 1850 and Sprint.

Jeroen

I wouldn't fancy trying to lift a heavy cast-iron engine block over the boot-sill of a Triumph Dolomite, for fear of damaging my back.

For two people, lifting a VW 1600 Type 2 air-cooled engine into a Triumph Toledo boot, with NO boot-sill was quite simple, involving no back strain.

[soe8m]

I wouldn't fancy trying to lift a heavy cast-iron engine block over the boot-sill of a Triumph Dolomite, for fear of damaging my back.

For two people, lifting a VW 1600 Type 2 air-cooled engine into a Triumph Toledo boot, with NO boot-sill was quite simple, involving no back strain.

[TrustNo1]

1500 is a stroker so the block is taller than on the 1300

Steve

are you sure about that?

[naskeet]

1500 is a stroker so the block is taller than on the 1300

Steve

are you sure about that?

Engines of the same type with a longer stroke, often have pistons with a smaller compression height so that the same cylinder block or length of cylinder barrels can be used and maintain the same squish clearance. This is certainly true of the VW 17/1800 Type 4 and VW 2000 Type 4 style air-cooled engines, which had 66 mm & 71 mm strokes respectively and also applies to the after-market crankshafts of even longer stroke. I believe this is also true of the 1983~92 VW Transporter T3 wasserboxer engine, which had strokes of 69 mm and 76 mm.

I wouldn't fancy trying to lift a heavy cast-iron engine block over the boot-sill of a Triumph Dolomite, for fear of damaging my back.

For two people, lifting a VW 1600 Type 2 air-cooled engine into a Triumph Toledo boot, with NO boot-sill was quite simple, involving no back strain.

An engine hoist would certainly be useful, but I didn't have access to one of those! One would need the use of one at both the start and end of one's journey, unless it's possible to dismantle the hoist and take it on the journey.

[soe8m]

The engine I picked up is what seems to be a very low milage engine. All original, never opened, no black muck inside and all bearings nice dark grey without the copper shining through. I selected it by axial play and being able to rotate by hand. It's alway's hard to choose when there are a few greasy engine in front of you and choose one but it seems I was lucky.

The next question is, how are the 1850 single rail gearboxes to fit behind a 1300 engine? I know I need a bellhousing and a clutch to solve but the inputshaft, does that cause fitting trouble or are the lenghts the same?

I do have a brand new 1850 single rail overdrive gearbox and when it's possible to fit I would like to.

Jeroen

[Carledo]

The engine I picked up is what seems to be a very low milage engine. All original, never opened, no black muck inside and all bearings nice dark grey without the copper shining through. I selected it by axial play and being able to rotate by hand. It's alway's hard to choose when there are a few greasy engine in front of you and choose one but it seems I was lucky.

The next question is, how are the 1850 single rail gearboxes to fit behind a 1300 engine? I know I need a bellhousing and a clutch to solve but the inputshaft, does that cause fitting trouble or are the lenghts the same?

I do have a brand new 1850 single rail overdrive gearbox and when it's possible to fit I would like to.

Jeroen

I'm not dead certain about this, but i'm sure I heard/read/learned somewhere that the 1850 box in both 3 rail and single rail forms has a unique longer input shaft to accomodate the extra length of the engine adaptor plate used on the slant engine.

The parts list bears this out with a different part number for the single rail 1850 input shaft, 2nd gear, laygear cluster and 1st/2nd gear synchro hubs. All other bits are identical on 1300/1500/1850 single rail boxes. So there's something different about 2nd gear on the 1850 box as well, perhaps a taller ratio.

Steve

[xvivalve]

I'm not dead certain about this, but i'm sure I heard/read/learned somewhere that the 1850 box in both 3 rail and single rail forms has a unique longer input shaft to accomodate the extra length of the engine adaptor plate used on the slant engine.

The parts list bears this out with a different part number for the single rail 1850 input shaft, 2nd gear, laygear cluster and 1st/2nd gear synchro hubs. All other bits are identical on 1300/1500/1850 single rail boxes. So there's something different about 2nd gear on the 1850 box as well, perhaps a taller ratio.

Steve

The 1850 doesn't have an adaptor plate; it's only necessary on the Sprint to get the gear selector of the TR6 type gearbox in the right place. 1850 gearboxes bolt directly to the engine backplate....as do 1300 and 1500 ones, so the input shafts should be the same length

[Carledo]

I'm not dead certain about this, but i'm sure I heard/read/learned somewhere that the 1850 box in both 3 rail and single rail forms has a unique longer input shaft to accomodate the extra length of the engine adaptor plate used on the slant engine.

The parts list bears this out with a different part number for the single rail 1850 input shaft, 2nd gear, laygear cluster and 1st/2nd gear synchro hubs. All other bits are identical on 1300/1500/1850 single rail boxes. So there's something different about 2nd gear on the 1850 box as well, perhaps a taller ratio.

Steve

The 1850 doesn't have an adaptor plate; it's only necessary on the Sprint to get the gear selector of the TR6 type gearbox in the right place. 1850 gearboxes bolt directly to the engine backplate....as do 1300 and 1500 ones, so the input shafts should be the same length

My mistake on the adaptor plate, this is what you get for relying on ancient memories, i've not HAD an 1850 since the early 90s!

But the fact remains, there are those part number differences, whether it's to do with spline numbers or diameters rather than length, I couldn't say, but I seem to recall a GT6 owning mate in the 80s getting an 1850 (3 rail) box sold to him as being suitable for a GT6 (the 1850 box is directly descended from the GT6/VitesseII box and is it's closest relative) but I had to swap out the input shaft for a proper GT6 one to make it work. My memory stubbornly refuses to remind me of exactly WHY though!

Steve

[cliftyhanger]

The next question is, how are the 1850 single rail gearboxes to fit behind a 1300 engine? I know I need a bellhousing and a clutch to solve but the inputshaft, does that cause fitting trouble or are the lenghts the same?

I do have a brand new 1850 single rail overdrive gearbox and when it's possible to fit I would like to.

Jeroen

Different lengths I am afraid. And not as simple a just swapping the input shafts.
It may be possible to make a hybrid engine backplate to fit a OHV engine and the 1850 bellhousing. Clutch will be an issue (I think the T9 conversions use a bespoke plate on the ohv engines, you could source one of those) unless you can use a GT6 flywheel, clutch cover and 1850 plate? Will the 6 cyl flywheel fit a 4 cyl OHV??

EDIT another idea, cut the input shaft and weld the splined end from a 4 cylinder gearbox onto it. I know somebody who did that successfully. All done on a lathe, bored one part, spigot on the other, good welder etc. Flypress to get runout down to 2 thou, well withing spec. 125000 miles later all OK in his mk3 spitfire.

[DOLOMITE 135]

Shown below are the 1850 single rail input shaft (left), 1300/1500 single rail input shaft (right).

The parts list bears this out with a different part number for the single rail 1850 input shaft, 2nd gear, laygear cluster and 1st/2nd gear synchro hubs. All other bits are identical on 1300/1500/1850 single rail boxes. So there's something different about 2nd gear on the 1850 box as well, perhaps a taller ratio.

The 1850 gear ratio's are different hence different part numbers for the gears.
The 1st/2nd synchro (and reverse) hub is the same for 1300/1500 and WH prefix 1850 single rail gearboxes (part number 156911), it is also used on the Toledo, 1500 RWD and early Dolomite pre 1850HL three rail gearboxes. There is an alternative part UKC8748 which I believe is likely a heavier duty version as it is listed for DPI-BSM (which I guess stands for British School of Motoring) and it is also listed for WM prefix 1850 gearboxes.