Starter Motor (late 1850 LHD) solenoid alternatives

[GinettaG15]

my solenoid is dead....so several questions are comming up:

1. can i remove the solenoid with starter-motor insitu?
2. i found this https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-520473
3. using the following part of the lucas-number from above link: 25714A --> i found this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/385223698128 ... R-i5lIqSYQ

do you think this solenoid might fit? i´m not located in UK, so i´m trying to find alternatives, avoiding complex procedures for import-taxes and duty.

[MIG Wielder]

No, I don't think that it is possible to remove just the solenoid; or at least getting it back with the operating rod hooked over the starter mechanism is the problem.

Besides it may not be the solenoid that is the problem.

Have a look on the LHS of this wiring diagram.

The Pull-In solenoid coil is returned to earth through the starter brushes and commutator. So a faulty brush/ winding / even an earth on the starter main case will result in no pull-in coil operation.
The Hold-In coil is returned to earth via the solenoid casing but doesn't have enough energy to operate the starter.

It's going to be a case of bite the bullet and remove the whole thing I'm afraid, after checking for +12V on the large cable to the battery and the red/white cable from the IGN switch

There is always the option of one of these new Hi-Torque geared starter motors. I have one on my 1850 and its been no problem .
HTH,
Tony.

[xvivalve]

A while back, the folk who used to recondition starter motors for me told me the original specification solenoid cap for our starters was obsolete and they had to source an alternative. I had two units reconditioned with their alternative being used and they were both returned to me in a very short space of time as they began failing to start the cars. This was back when John Glenn was custodian of Ted's carmine sprint OUL as he was one of the returnees, so probably getting on for 10 years ago. The fault was found to be the alternative cap and they looked to the market to find an alternative alternative, which eventually they did and we've had no further problems.

By coincidence and unfortunately, I found out on Friday evening the reconditioners that I used have ceased trading and their site is up for sale, so I have no means of finding out which cap they used. However, I do have a Sprint unit here that they reconditioned recently for me. Whilst the cap on it does partly resemble the ebay link you've provided in that there are two large spade terminals on the main contact, the ebay link only has one secondary spade terminal whereas you will need one with two, so I don't think the ebay item is suitable. The OE caps had one 6 mm secondary spade and one much smaller whereas the compatible alternative has two the same both at 6 mm; see photo'.

I agree with Tony, attempting to change the solenoid in situ would be a fool's errand, but removal and replacement of the whole starter unit is neither difficult or time consuming if done correctly with the correct tools; you need a 3/8" drive 9/16" socket and a wobble bar extension. When refitting the top nut, pack the socket with grease to hold the nut in it and feel it back onto the stud.

I don't have a reconditioned 1850 unit in stock unfortunately, just a new old stock one, but I'm guessing carriage on a complete unit overseas might be considered prohibitive.

[Magenta Auto Sprint]

I have managed to change just the solenoid on my sprint Auto when it was making strange grating noises on the flex plate, it is tricky, but as Alan has said, may as well remove the whole thing just to be sure.

Changing the solenoid in my case made no difference.

Malcolm

[Rgf]

Ive got same problem on my 1850auto w reg ,how much is the new starter you've got in stock ? Postage to bolton

[triumphdolomiteuk]

https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... =4&t=37153

[xvivalve]

£117 with free (UK) postage

[yorkshire_spam]

I have a small number of NEW solenoid caps with the 2 spade connectors:



See: https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... 16#p340816

Cheers, Sam

[xvivalve]

I have a small number of NEW solenoid caps with the 2 spade connectors:



See: https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... 16#p340816

Cheers, Sam

Apologies Sam, I'd completely forgotten our correspondence about these!

[yorkshire_spam]

Apologies Sam, I'd completely forgotten our correspondence about these!

No worries Alun.

[GinettaG15]

so...i can confirm that the solenoid cannot be removed with motor insitu.

this said: it took me just 15min to remove the complete starter motor. not the easiest job...but with my full range of tools not that comlicate...even access is, compared to lots of other cars i worked, a bit awkward...and what a heavy lump....

i split motor and solenoid on my work bench, both tested on the bench...both working well.
the release-lever inside the starter moves freely. the pinion rotates and moves forward freely

once the solenoid is fitted back to the starter-motor it doenst do anything...doesnt klick, doesnt disengage. not logic to me...but maybe its just too weak?

can anybody tell me what the smaller spade-connector does? it looks like its powered when ignition is ON, but whats the logic behind?

[MIG Wielder]

The smaller spade connector with the white/yellow wire on goes to the Ignition coil "+" and is the +12V ballast resistor supply. It is only at +12V during starting.

I would maintain that it is very difficult to bench test the starter-solenoid as the Pull-in coil takes about 50 A from 12V . So will need chunky cables. It is also only designed to operate momentarily during initial key operation. It is going to get very hot if left on for even a few seconds.
The hold-in coil is more manageable taking only 15A but will still need chunky cables to bench test it.
Testing by substitution is the best way.

Tony.

[GinettaG15]

ok....now i understand the principle...thanks for the info.

but this leads me to the following assumption:

in case my above posted alernative solenoid fits mechancally, i would have to solve the lack of the spade-connector for the ignition.

if i would use a spade connector on the motor-connection:

the terminal is only powered when the solenoid-contact is closed and the starter motor spins..and theoretically thats the moment were i would need the 12V on the ignition coil.

or is this idea comletely non-sense?

[GinettaG15]

this morning i had some time for investigating.....very interesting result:

i connected a starter motor , laying around from a rover v8, and again: nothing happened, no click, no noise...nothing
i used a 2nd battery with jump-leads , just to exclude that the car´s battey is a weak point : nothing
when my mate sit inside the car and turned the key in start-position i disconnected the white/red wire from the starter and re-connected it straight away --> the rover-starter engaged and was spinning.

now with the white/red wire remaining connected i could repeat the procedue plenty of times....it worked.

i reconnected the original starter and again: nothing
i swapped again to the rover starter: working

than i recognized the following:
once the triumph starter was connected to the battery (thick cable), i had 12V on the bigger spade-connector...it looks like there is a shotcut somewhere internaly the solenoid. this also explains why my battery was always empty after 1 week.

now its up to decide if i invest in a new solenoid or straight away in a high-torque starter motor but i´m confused if the 3rd terminal is present on those high-torque motors?

thsi said...on replacement solenoids for the standard-motor it neither looks present:

https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-520473

[MIG Wielder]

in case my above posted alernative solenoid fits mechancally, i would have to solve the lack of the spade-connector for the ignition.

if i would use a spade connector on the motor-connection:

the terminal is only powered when the solenoid-contact is closed and the starter motor spins..and theoretically thats the moment were i would need the 12V on the ignition coil.

Interesting idea but unfortunatly when the 12V disappears, when you release the ignition key, the starter motor armature resistance then appears across the ignition coil and will stop it working. Not only that but the armature will try and power up from the white wire switched ignition feed.
The function can be realised with a relay, the relay-coil being fed from the red / white wire ignition switch start supply the other side of the relay coil going to a good earth and the switched output going from the coil "+" to the white wire ignition ON supply.

HTH,
Tony.